And so it continues

BoxcabE50 Jul 29, 2016

  1. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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  2. subwayaz

    subwayaz TrainBoard Member

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    Wow can't we all just get along....LOL
     
  3. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Heck no. The Class Ones want rid of Amtrash. Why do you think they so willing allowed the passenger trains to operate as Class 2 trains? It took long enough for them to finally win their Class 1 status...back.

    The dispatchers have out of courtesy allowed the passenger trains to run ahead or behind their hot shot freights. It's the frequent station stops the drives the dispatchers nuts.

    It's like anything else. It is what it is and won't be anything more or less. Huuunh?
     
  4. Hardcoaler

    Hardcoaler TrainBoard Member

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    It's the same dispatching mess that developed when Congress became determined to regulate crude oil train speeds. Threading fast trains around slow trains produces a mess of starts and stops, increased fuel use, crew scheduling challenges and reduced system velocity. The industry experts in Congress also brought us PTC signaling.
     
  5. subwayaz

    subwayaz TrainBoard Member

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    Interesting info that I didn't know. Learn something new everyday I come on the Trainboard about our Hobby. Thanks for sharing
     
  6. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    When Amtrak was first conceived, the passenger trains were supposed to have priority. 1st Class trains, as they had always been.
     
  7. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    This is true, with emphasis on "Supposed to," operate as Class 1 Trains. It didn't work out that way. The Class One railroads said no, not a chance in hades, Amtrak's passenger trains were to run as second class freight trains and under the same scheduling. Often times the C and Z freight trains ran priority while Amtrak, tailed in behind them. That is if the station stops allowed them to continue to hang in there. To often a station stop would put them behind a local or slow freight. Then there was the issue of Amtrak Express Freight and the time it took to cut a car out of the consist or to add one. Putting them further behind the crack freight they were following. The reason scheduling became such a real problem.

    Santa Fe and UP did make an effort to keep them on schedule but the money makers, freight trains, always took precedence as in top priority.

    I watched with real interest as this played out here in Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado and other states. I don't think the class 1's thought Amtrak would last or survive as long as they have.... and as a result paid little attention to them. Trains magazine did a fair job of documenting the facts although some of the authors used a whole lot of their own interpretations and liberties with their reporting. Plenty of speculation to go around.

    Today, freight trains are running on a schedule and there are more first class freights operating at the same speeds as passenger trains, (where permitted), so the passenger trains should be able to take the lead or tag along. This should be a cooperative working environment for both freight and passenger trains.

    Taking a wait and see attitude.
     
  8. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    True very true and one of the biggest headaches to the Class 1 Railroads. The Fed's with their ever changing regulations is the greatest curse railroads suffer from.
     
    Hardcoaler likes this.
  9. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Also, there were supposed to be penalties for non-compliance with keeping Amtrak trains moving as agreed. So much for that. The standard bureaucratic failures, for which we always end up paying the bill(s).
     
    Hardcoaler likes this.
  10. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    It was more of a bonus thing. Although I do remember a proposal to penalize the class ones but I don't think that materialized.

    Overheard on my scanner while sitting at the Summit, Cajon Pass, Ca. A conductor, on an Amtrak train that was asked to back up and crossover to a different downhill track, "Looks like they don't want their on time bonus....today!" Two hours behind schedule. Which wasn't bad or so we were getting accustomed to saying. Usually the West Bound, Southwest Chief came through 6 to 12 hours late. That's Ok, if you have a roomette, videos to watch and aren't in a hurry.

    Boxcab, like you said, "And so it continues."
    The saga continues.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2016
  11. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    The delay penalties still exist, but they have become so small, relatively, that now they are merely an insignificant cost of daily business, like printer paper, toner, etc.

    The delays to Amtrak's Crescent (#19 & 20) between Meridian, MS and Birmingham, AL are between one and two hours due to the congestion of NS, KCS, and CSX freights from the Meridian Speedway (KCS/NS), New Orleans Northeastern (NS), Mobile, AL (CSX), and Atlanta (NS, and KCS & CSX via trackage rights). I used to set my watch by Crescent time-keeping the dozens of times I rode for business before I retired in 1997. Though that was before the $300M upgrade of the Meridian Speedway by the joint effort of KCS and NS in early 2000's. When our son rode the Crescents last week and this, he sat in holes watching freights pass for at least 15 minutes each time, making him 1-1/2 hours late southbound and 2 hours late northbound.

    Penalties are just a minor cost of doing business that accountants put near the bottom.....:mad:
     
    BoxcabE50 likes this.
  12. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Yeah. Pay the fines, as the profits far outweigh any consequences. Plus, they can probably easily write off the penalties tax paperwork, so in teh end, there is virtually zero monetary setback.
     
  13. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    One solution would be for Congress to scrap the Amtrak legislation and give the railroads the same monies to reinstate passenger trains. This would reverse the damage done when Congress cancelled the transport of mail by rail in 1967, which is what ultimately killed passenger trains. I suspect that when passenger trains started carrying Class I railroad logos they would become trains by which you could again set your watches, just like the trains of my youth. OK, so I'm a dreamer, but what the heck.....:whistle:
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
    acptulsa likes this.
  14. mmi16

    mmi16 TrainBoard Member

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    Not going to happen. No existing Class 1 will get into the passenger business - EVER!
     
  15. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    Yeh, I know, but what the Heck. I'll always remember my wonderful rides on the Golden State, Commodore Vanderbilt, Pacemaker, Minute Man, etc., and wish I still could ride any of them one more time. :(
     
  16. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

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    Here's to that! And it was not mainly the mail contracts. SCL, ATSF, Southern and quite a few other roads did not want to discontinue the service, mail contracts or not. But the ICC made the railroads continue to operate unpopular trains. Right up to Amtrak, the BN was forced to operate six round trips daily between Minneapolis and Seattle (Montana had a very powerful senator). The railroads were forced to agree to Anthrax just to escape the goofy tyranny of the ICC.

    When Anthrax took over, they dropped every one of the trains that the Santa Fe petitioned to drop in 1967-1968. The government considered them vital, but the government wasn't willing to operate them.

    I agree the process should be reversed. The railroads gave the government money and equipment to get out from under. The government could at least give equipment and promise not to make the railroads run any trains the government isn't willing to run.

    Don't be too sure. Reagan shut down the ICC long ago. I'm sure the railroads would think long and hard about taking on the liability. But they might do just about anything to get the government off their rails. They just might.

    One thing passenger service was good for was advertising and publicity. As it is, the railroads go to the trouble and disrupt their traffic and the government gets the publicity. No wonder the priority just isn't there.

    You say no Class One would do it. But the UP is a Class One, and it goes to considerable trouble to do excursions for publicity purposes. They even maintain steam engines for the purpose. So I'm not entirely sure why you say that.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  17. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Passenger trains were more than just transporting people. Railroads used them as sales tools, for landing and maintaining business from shippers. Thus passenger was deeply intertwined with freight. The dollar amount losses on passenger were actually misleading in that regard... Modern passenger services, all heavy rail types, do not return this benefit to the railroads upon which they operate.
     
  18. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    I agree. Passenger trains were a useful marketing tool in the days of local and LCL shipments. They have no marketing benefit today with unit, raw material, bulk, and large product shipments. Local mom-n-pop hardware, department store, and grain & feed rail shipments don't exist anymore.
     
  19. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

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    Even heavily used commuter lines were expensive to run. The SP ran 44 daily commuter trains on the San Francisco Peninsula for a loss until 1980, when CalTrans took over.

    The Rio Grande was the last Class 1 (other than the Alaska) to run a regularly scheduled passenger train, until 1983, and until 1980, they even had a daily narrow gauged steam train.

    All new passenger trains since have been either a tourist line or a government funded train. Unless people give up on driving their cars or flying, we will never see a Class 1 passenger train again.
     
  20. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    If anyone from the private sector ever runs passenger rail again, they must cater to the public with convenience of scheduling and location of stations. Which is a difficult task at very best. Whether local or long distances traveled, those two factors are what keeps people in cars. Yes, gas prices are also an influence..... But if you can't get to where you must be, when required, then a train is useless.
     

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