I thought (and hoped) we had cleared that up three pages ago. I guess not. Maybe I was confused by another having the same meter and good readings. Maybe we should just surmise no questions in troubleshooting are trick questions, eh? Dave
Have you tried it with a couple of locomotives in addition to the meter? If only one loco, could it have accidentally been put into standby mode? Or, could the momentum setting have gotten corrupted giving you such a long startup time that it seems like it's not moving? Just because you returned the old units to NCE and they said they replaced them with new ones, you can't really be sure unless you marked the old pieces for easy identification. Mistakes can always happen with anyone. Bill in FtL
Again thanks fellows. Of course in an issue like this no questions in troubleshooting are trick questions. Imagine my frustration of being able for a year to use my voltmeter on my track through different wiring evolutions and always having power to run trains and then suddenly not. While I don't profess to be any kind of an electrical guy I do know how to follow direction in the System Reference Manual as far as basic wiring. It all worked for year. Sines and square wave are something way beyond my knowledge. I tested the the two circled spot on the power panel. Nothing. Something is wrong before those points. The light works, the cab works, but even with my magnifying goggles I can find not breaks or cracks in the line. railtwester, I have tried putting locos on the track in my testing just to see if that makes a different. I'm not savvy about standby mode or momentums. Could these two ideas prevent power from leaving the power panel while the panel is sitting on the floor currently not attached to the layout in any way? Testing with locos would only work if they were getting power in the first place. Does that make sense? I had hoped someone else had this problem and found a fix and could share that fix. Maybe today. Thanks, Jim
Once again...have you set your VOM to AC? In the last post, you don't tell us. Now for the bad news. If you measured the circled spots, your LED was on, and you read zero.....well, now we really need to check the VOM settings, because those two circled spots feed the LED directly. That means there is power at the circled points. I do not even know what type of VOM that is, as I don't think I've seen a full on shot of the front. Every one I have is selectable, and every one I have is analog. Dave
Dave, I put the meter to 200 ACV. I registered 29 in the plug from the wall transformer. I put the pos and neg needles on the two circled spots and got zero for a reading. Same zero reading I got with the meter turned to 20 DCV. ?? My meter is a Sperry DM-350A model. I even put fresh batteries in it. Jim
Yeah, I just figured out on google it was a sperry 350A. Right two ports on the bottom of the meter front, correct? Common and V-ohm-? And the LED is on? LED is fed from those two circled points. Circuit boards are usually (sometimes....always....depends) sealed. Depends on the environment they are expected to operate in. Lacquer finish sometimes. Sometimes a better finish. You need to make sure you aren't being insulated from the tracks by a board coating. I don't want to advise you on the best way top do that......because if you mess it up, and NCE won't warrant it, well... Sometimes all you need to do is press firmly with the tips of the probes in the holes and rotate slightly back and fort, while watching the meter. If that LED is lit.....and the output for dcc is a sort of AC....maybe it's low enough your 200VAC scale won't pick it up. Not likely, but it doesn't take much to light the LED. Dqave
Hi Jim, This is a real puzzle. Sometimes problems like this can be caused by something so simple, everyone overlooks it. Just to be sure, first thing that I would do is hook up a 16 volt light bulb (not an led) to the rails. Then I would hook up an old fashioned DC power pack to the bus wires (after disconnecting the DCC system first), and see if the bulb will light up. If it doesn't light, then you have either a short or a continuity problem with the layout itself. If the bulb does light, then I would remove the DC pack and connect the DCC system back up and turn it on. If there's any power output from the DCC system, the bulb should light up, since DCC uses full power on the rails at all times. If it doesn't light, then you do have a problem with the system's power output. If it does light up with both DC and DCC then at least you know you have power & continuity to the track, and the problem is likely in the programming. Have you tried the system in programming mode to see if that will work? Locos usually will lurch while being programmed, which can be helpful in seeing if the programming is trying to work. Could it be possible that the problem only shows up in Run mode and not in Program mode? Standby mode is used mostly for some sound locos to allow them to be parked on an active track with either the sound off, motor off, or both. I believe it is a setting made to decoders rather than the system, so if you have tried several locos, it's unlikely that this is the problem. Same thing with momentum. If a locomotive's momentum setting were to get changed without you knowing it, the time delay at start could be long enough to mislead you into thinking the loco won't run (this used to happen to me occasionally with an analog MRC power pack, because the momentum switch was adjacent to the reverse switch and was easy hit by accident). Bill in FtL
The problem is more fundamental than one bad locomotive. (by the way, just check the power across the led/resistor combination in AC mode and see if it reads voltage with the probes in both "polarities") There is power to the resistor / led combination. There is no power to the track output. Put your meter there (one probe on the LED lead NOT connected to the resistor, and the other probe on the resistor lead NOT connected to the LED) and you should read your 10-13 volts.. Now, leave one probe in place, and keep checking voltage as the trace goes from where you are to the pin in the track connector. Do one "side" first. You will either find the break, or get to the track connector pin. If you haven't found the break, leave the probe on the track connector pin and progress the same way on the other "side". Greg
Guys and Greg, Thank you. Greg I will attempt to do your tests tomorrow afternoon. I'm called away on business matters until noon tomorrow. I hope. Jim
Greg finally I'm back. Sometimes life gets in the way of more important things. I did your test. No luck. Also it was suggested that I hook up a piece of track to the power panel and see if maybe there was a hidden short on the layout. I didn't think this was necessary, but I did it to make another test. No power to this track either. I'm at a loss on this dilema. Jim
Hi Jim, If all the suggestions on this list have been tried to no effect, and if NCE did change out the PCP and Power Cable as they said, I think the answer must be in the power output of the hand-held controller. It could be as simple as a bad connection at the RJ socket (which a touch of De-Ox-it cleaner might fix), or a bad internal component somewhere on the board. Unless you have a local dealer for NCE who would be willing to help you troubleshoot this problem further (which would probably require trying a new hand-held with your old setup), I think you need to call the folks at NCE, and speak to Jim Scorse directly, since this unit has already been returned twice to no effect. I once had a brand new NCE decoder several years ago, that I sent back because I couldn't get it to accept a new 2 digit loco address, and it came back from repair, still with the same problem, twice. After emailing Jim about the situation, I sent it back again, and shortly afterward, I received a brand new unit (which worked fine) in exchange. A few weeks later, I received the original decoder in the mail, this time in working order, along with a note that they had found that there was a problem when the initial master programming was originally done on the unit done during production, and that was the reason it wouldn't work with my system, but it would work fine with their test equipment. They do care about customer service! Let us know what happens. Bill in FtL
Thanks Bill, I'm afraid this seems to be my only alternative at this point. I feel bad that there is no 'easy' solution to this issue and I'm the only one with the problem. I feel NCE has a good product and this seems to be an isolated incident. Hopefully, no one will be hesitant in purchasing their products because of this. I will let you all know the outcome. Again the for all the help from you Trainboarders. Jim
So, we have absolutely no power at the circled points on the board, yet the LED is lit, correct? Dave
I will try to explain the electronics involved, and you can see the Tesla Engineering that transmits power without wires! Those two spots that were circled. There are small tracks you can see coming off of each spot. One goes to one side of the LED. The other track goes to one side of the LED current limiting resistor. On top of the board is another track that ties the resistor and LED together, making a complete circuit. If the LED is lit, and there is no power at the circled points, then we must have Tesla Remove Transmission of power! I could understand if you had a very small amount of power, but to have zero, and the LED lit....well, power is coming from some place! Very odd. And, probably, NCE won't be able to find anything wrong. Dave
I just checked my NCE Power Cab panel with an ohm meter. I took one clip lead and attached to the right wire sticking out of the track connector. I found continuity on the black circles on the right and the right lead of the LED. The bottom right spot is a pin on the six pin connector that connects to the cab. I then did the same thing on the left side. All three spots connect to each other. The left track connector connects to the LED resistor which connects to the left LED lead. I use a tool with a fine point to probe the PC connections. There is no protective coating on the points anyway It does not get any simpler. I traced from one connector to the other. I then plugged in the power, the Cab is lit and I see AC voltage from top to bottom. Rich .
Isn't that what I said? The issue is, he has no output on the track output plug.....and no power on the circled spots....yet the LED lights. This is six pages long, and it makes my head hurt to go back through it....but did we ever connect a light bulb or loose motor across the outputs? And, when you do that, does the LED go out (which would indicate a bad solder joint somewhere)? Dave
Just enforcing the discussion. If I run into anything like this, I trouble shoot to the point of the bad connection and get the solder iron out and put a jumper in over the defective spot or touch up all the solder points. I have done both over the years and solved the issue. That was the days before the Internet also. We were really on our own. lol When he solves this, I will just delete everything I posted. Not a big deal. Rich
No, we're on the same track (pun?). That's where we are trying to get. He has no power at the points you have circled, yet the LED lights. Since the power comes from the wall wart, through the board, through the handheld, back to the board, and out the plug to the tracks, how is the LED lighting? Boggles the mind....... Bad or cold solder joints, bad connections in the plugs and sockets....but all of those would cause the LED to not light...unless...it's a high resistance joint, which is why I'd like to know with an old motor or incandescent bulb across the output, does the LED extinguish? Dave
