... I was going to say something here, but I've helped the "sparky" crowd derail one too many threads already... so I'll let it slide. Mussst.... resist.... Oh, Okay. I give. No, it doesn't. Conventional current flows positive to negative. Electrons flow negative to positive. The reason is that conventional current became the convention before electrons were discovered. Sorry. I tried to let it go. I promise!
No offense taken Rick. Incidently, I don't know what Atlas recommends as its been a long time since I've read an atlas book's wiring section, I do know that Robert's diagram will work. If that's what Atlas recommends, then I'm unsure why the actual theory would cause a problem. If Robert's diagram is different from what Atlas recommends, then Atlas is wrong. Hardly the first time.
After it was discovered that current flow was the result of electron flow there was actually an attempt justify the entire current flowing from positive to negative theory by inventing a particle called a "hole" which was the place where an electron should be. By the time I took electronics in high school back in the early seventies the entire "conventional" current flow theory was known to be incorrect. Now if you really want to start a discussion we can talk about which way the electrons curve when you shoot them into a magnetic field.baffled:
Naah, we've already derailed this thread plenty. As for holes, they do a great job of helping explain how semiconductors work... And as for conventional current, it's just that... a convention. Sure, it's completely backward, but for most things it doesn't matter. Kindof like which side of the road to drive on. As long as everybody's using the same convention, most things work out just fine. OK, I'll let it go now.
LOL See what I mean about these engineer types. Go ahead guys, we can all learn something here. I'm not sure what but we can learn something...right? Just a reminder, you can't derail a thread or hi-jack it. A thread goes where a thread goes. Besides we are all good enough friends and our friendship is strong enough to take a few jabs. So get on with it!
Well, that's it. Now I'm in trouble. I have the MRC Prodigy system sitting in the box - but not for long. I'm going to do it. I'm going to make the conversion. I have one little problem that I need to deal with - most of my turnouts are the older Micro Engineering, so you know what that means...
Barstow Rick, Thanks! While the original of this post was last year, the continuous threads could not have been more timely! I was recently presented with the opportunity to buy a new MRC Prodigy Advance 2 at a “can’t refuse this offer” price. But, I was holding off as I was envisioning a comprehensive rewiring of my 13 blocks. While extensively researching the unit, I came across this post with the title that just didn’t catch my attention, it grabbed my attention and shook it around. That was basically how I wired my layout! DPDT switches for each block. No common rail! Flex track and rail joiners. There are lot fewer soldered joints and some longer runs, but the last three lines were the clincher – it was similar to yours and it should work. It was time, I was in. I bought the unit, went to the LHS for a couple of plug and play Digitrax decoders (no hard wiring yet), and picked up a DPDT, center off toggle (as per later posts) for the “cutover switch”. I hooked up everything, flipped the cutover switch, turned on the Prodigy, made sure all the DPDTs were “cab A”, and just like you said, IT WORKS!!! I just wanted to let you know your story inspired at least one more person to make the big leap. I have many locomotives so DC will still be used a lot, but having two trains run in opposite directions, controlled from only the handheld unit and a passing siding puts a smile on my face. Thanks again!
COL How about that? Can't get any better...right? Glad it worked out and you won't find this in print anywhere you look but here on TrainBoard. Your going to like the way this works...I guarantee it.
BarstowRick, after reading your thread I learned that I wired DCC like you say ... but I did it 18 mos ago ... Hmmm? accident? ... with no experience, no reading, I got it right ... and believe me, I was ignorant ... Dare I tread these waters? ... When I started N-scale 18 mos ago or so, I wanted DCC because it made such sense ... run the trains, not the trak ... lighting effects, sound effects, and much more ...do it step by step, ever more sophisticated ... I bought the idea and believed ... Since I didn't know anything about DC, I had no memory to erase ... had watched a major local club demonstrate operations, DC, and I was perplexed by all the switches they were throwing, radio communications across the room to know when to switch, etc. ... and wires, wires, wires everywhere ... if I had to wire DC I wouldn't do MRR ... DCC blew it away. DCC wiring I understand: two wires to each isolated section ... I followed the insanely concise instructions for Peco 55 turnouts (never a word DC/DCC) and never had a fault, 1st time, every time ... in time I learned that I had "power routing" switches ... what!! ... means I could cut power to staging traks where I hold trains awaiting orders; I had been sweating out wiring DPDT switches to cut the power because some of my engines are still DC and you know they whine & cook up a bit on DCC ... Oh my, power routing solved the issue ... who knew, took me 12 mos to get that understood ... learned this by accident, not by study or by consults w/DC veterans or by reading any of the famous texts ... Use 16 ga (solid, twisted?) bus as a spine and 22 ga drops (solid, twisted?), wherever needed ... obviously, keeping the 22 ga drops minimal and the 16 ga minimal makes sense ... never more than one drop-pair to an isolated section ... handles a 4x12 layout w/+90' flex, w/20 turnouts (all manual) ... no issues, all fun ... consider 14 ga spine, 20 ga drops? ... can't believe it'd ever be needed ... None of my turnouts have ever been given any of the famous "jumpers" or supplemental power feeds or polarity reversers, etc. ... was told once that "them Peco's just don't do DCC" ... unbelieveable ... BTW, compared my wiring to my N-trak club's, Atlas 80 trak/switches ... the very same technic ... Hmmm? is that a pattern ... have been told "better drop them wires every 3 foot, worst case every 5 or so ... one run I have approaches 40feet, one drop ... have been told "solder them connectors," did once, don't now, cleaned it off my trak and never looked back ... have been told "suitcase connectors, crap" ... by then knew better ... "get a terminal strip" ... nope, use euro connectors right where the bus meets drop, never fail, never confused ... There must be something here I don't understand ... have learned that there are other kinds of turnouts besides power routing, so there'd be something to learn (if ever I need such)... learned that there will be a need sometime for A/B reversal, as in the reverse loop, wye thing, switched Xovers, etc ... but those things will be handled when needed ... one issue at a time ... and I'll trust the instructions ... Of course, there may be differences across the different scales because of power issues ... but really? ... teach me ... Goodness, common rail, what has it to do with DCC? ... "echo" corruption of signals? ... high multiples of power districts, shorts isolation? ... overloads? ... do not have these problems: train derails, pull power, reset, and restart ... I would need another power district if and when, not now ... BTW, I twist my drops and my bus/spine ... because it looks neat ... there is another thread that agonizes over twisting/not twisting and bus termination/looping ... ??? So what's this post about? ... keep it simple, keep it accurate ... no confusion, I'm not so smart to understand otherwise ... Yes, I wire it your way ... of course, I do N-scale and ... The real --- buster is hard-wired decoders on old equipment ... now, there's a subject :tb-biggrin:
BarstowRick, GREAT THREAD, I have read this thread many times now and always enjoy it!! I keep reading posts that say "I'm going DCC it's so much easier to wire" this is a myth created to sell DCC systems! The truth is a PROPERLY wired Dualcab DC layout and a DCC layout with power districts are wired the exact same way, with one exception, the toggle switch, the DC layout has to have it, the DCC layout it's optional! Sure the components are different but the wiring is the same. Common rail or common bus should never even be mentioned in model railroading! Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you SHOULD! I have a sport bike{crouch rocket} I CAN go 120mph in 3rd gear that doesn't mean I SHOULD! Publications and articles teaching common rail are wrong, it would be like my bikes owners manual saying start bike, pull in clutch, put in gear, give full throttle, let out clutch, have fun, the end results are the same, NO FUTURE! The thing that irks me is a guy will brag about wire gauge and length of run, and resistance then run the bus line in the center of the bench work and run the feeders to it, therefore putting the resistance back into the equation! The PROPER way would be to install the track and feeders first then run the bus wire around under the bench work to the feeders!
I agree that a properly wired DC layout will work with DCC. It's merely a matter of substituting the booster for a DC cab. However, I think that you can wire a DCC layout "properly" and have the wiring be simpler then an equivalent DC layout. With DC you need to run the block wiring back to a control panel. Depending on the number of blocks and the distance to the panel this can result in quite a few wires coming into one area. With DCC power districts the additional boosters, circuit breakers or light bulbs (whichever you're using) can be placed closer to the power district they serve. Reducing the wiring. Also, I think most people don't use as many power districts as they would DC blocks. While I believe that the wiring for DCC can be simpler, I don't believe this is a good reason to switch to DCC. It's not that hard to wire DC properly. Switch to DCC because of the flexibility and features it offers.
You are all doing a good job with your contributions to this thread and the continuation of said topic. We don't have to agree to disagree but it certainly makes the discussion a lot easier to transition from one thought to another. AND more interesting when we share various points of view. I still think straight DCC as it was originally promoted is the easiest form of wiring as it cuts out all the home runs and toggle switches. Still if you have a fleet of DC locomotives and you don't see a complete conversion any time soon. AND you are already wired to Cab A and Cab B with various toggled blocks then it becomes a easy transition by either converting Cab A to DCC (a swap out) or you can spot a DPDT electrical toggle switch between Cab A and your DCC Power Supply. Cab A then becomes DCC or Analog DC with a flip of the switch. Actually the safest thing would be the installation of a Four Pole, Four Throw switch so you can shut down Analog Completely and switch it to DCC only...on the layout. Steve and I are currently wiring in a friends layout as described. He wants to run his Analog DC and use two cabs. Then he wants the layout completely flipped to DCC to run said types of locomotives. Loads of fun....your choice. Common Wire and Common Rail should be a thing of the past, as it has nothing to do with any of the above. It was a bad idea to start with and has been proven to be an ineffective method of operating trains. Wishing we could leave it behind and allow it to die with dignity.
Just an update. To date: There are four different model railroads in the Big Bear Valley aka Big Bear Lake, CA., now operating with a combined DCC and Analog DC via DPDT toggle switches, Cab A and Cab B. All operating with little to no problems. I can't say perfect... as we are all prone to leave a DPDT toggle switch thrown in the wrong direction. A human error type of thing...I thought you'd get it. Hours of fun and train load after train load of fun. Enjoy!
Big Bear Valley, Ca the valley of Big Bear Lake and Big Bear City. News: Dennis, the newest member of the Big Bear Valley Model Railroaders, has plans to build an HO Layout, the fifth layout to be operated with DCC. How about them apples? Oh, before I forget. Stubby is building a N scale layout to be powered with Analog DC and DCC. He recently purchased three FVM, UP, Flag Ship locomotives (locomotive description slips my memory). He brought them over to test track on my layout. I handed him the MRC handheld and to our surprise they did just fine, smooth runners. I tied in 43 freight cars of mine and he was able to pull them up my 2+% grades. I don't care what they pull on the flat, it's what they pull up my grades that counts. Stubby left with a big grin on his face. I don't think a mortician could wipe that smile off...LOL. You might be interested to learn. After all the grins, in order to retrieve the 43 car freight train. I had to send 4 locomotives down hill to bring it back up. A Athearn F45, IM SD 45, and two IM SD 40-T2's. Three of them wouldn't get'r done. What? What? What did I say? Did I just say, those FVM's are pullers? wink: AND the easiest locomotives I know to convert over from analog DC to DCC. Easypeasy!
Odd but when I was reading through this, in order to answer a question for a friend. I noted the smiley faces are gone and in there place a written description...which doesn't always fit the thought being expressed. Another case of the suits in the head office making it tough on us guys working the front line. What? They didn't ask me! Besides my days of being a member of the society of administrator's is long gone. Although, I shake my head at would be administrative types who have no experience or training in such areas...and...it's apparent. FUBAR. Since I can't fix them, we will have to live with it. DCC and Layout Update: DCC has taken a temporary back seat as I work my way through other projects. It's installed and with the flip of a toggled DPDT switch I can turn analog Cab B into DCC. I'ma currently rebuilding sections of the layout due to heat kinks. The one locomotive I bought from Terry, found it's way to the floor. Sitting on the work bench waiting for a snow day. Other's in the valley are either installing add on's, re-building sections of their layouts or tore them down completely and are starting over. Loads of fun! That is once we get a layout operational. One thing and just this one thing. Not everything is as they claim it to be or works like the so called experts say it will work. Always, look for the exceptions.
