From Rochelle IL and doing Whitcomb Research

machinehead61 Jun 13, 2012

  1. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    [​IMG]

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    In the first quarter of 1944, Baldwin changed magazines and consolidated two into one.

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    Steve
     
  2. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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  3. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    The price is beyond all reality, even for several of them. Fascinating that there is no information given at all, about condition. Even worse, the category where it is listed:
    Home & Garden>
    Tools>
    Air Compressors
    Business & Industrial>
    Manufacturing & Metalworking>
    Other

    This is not being offered by someone who thought carefully before creating a listing. :(
     
  4. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    You are 100% correct Boxcab. The person is off in la-la land. Absolutely no details that would be critical to deciding whether or not to buy the unit - and $25,000 ????? Greedy cup runneth over.

    Steve
     
  5. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    Not directly linked to Whitcomb even though Baldwin owned Whitcomb by then and some of these engines were installed in Whitcomb units. I just thought some folks here might enjoy the information.

    From Baldwin Magazine Third Quarter 1944.

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    Steve
     
  6. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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  7. melling

    melling TrainBoard Member

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    Whitcombs in WW2

    Yours is a worthy cause, Steve, and wish you all the luck in research and publishing!

    If you are interested in Whitcomb's WW2 locomotive production, I would recommend consulting R. Tourret's "Allied Military Locomotives of the Second World War" which contains specific chapters on the two similar-looking but different 65 Ton models produced en masse for the war effort as well as tabulated information about other Whitcombs acquired by the USA/TC for use in Hawaii and various ordnance plants.

    You can get an impression of the importance of the Whitcombs in the Middle East war effort from the following pictures, showing at least 17 of them at the Az-Zib depot, south of the then-Palestin-Lebanon border and the handing-over point between civilian (Palestine Railways) and military (British War Department) operations on the newly-built Haifa-Beirut-Tripoli line.
    Whitcombs in Az-Zib shed - WWII.jpg

    Chen Melling
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2014
  8. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    Thank you very much Chen. Where did you find the photograph? Do you have others? The one you posted is fantastic.

    I plan on going to the California State Railway Museum this spring and dive into their Whitcomb records. They have all the production records.

    Taking the train out there of course.

    Steve
     
  9. melling

    melling TrainBoard Member

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    The picture at Az-Zib was found in the collection of the late Paul Cotterell when I took it to the Israel Railway Museum, where I am the current manager.

    It was used in his book "Make Straight the Way" about the history of railways in Israel, published by my employers, Israel Railways Ltd. The book also includes the two following Whitcomb views:
    View attachment 60586
    Above is a 1944 view in Beirut, where an un-identified 65-Tonner is juxtaposed with the diminutive looking British (War Department) 25 Ton brake van, based on a Southern Railway design. Photo by K.R.M Cameron.

    View attachment 60587
    The second photo was taken by D.S. Currie at a dock alongside the Suez Canal with the S.S. Clan Chisholm as a backdrop. WD 71233 (nee 1233) and a classmate are probably due to be loaded on the ship on their way to Italy. I don't know what the WS 378 designation on both locos stands for.

    Note that the two pictures show a slight difference in cab profile - this is represented in the diagrams presented earlier in this thread.

    Chen
     
  10. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    Chen, your two links; Attachment 60586 and Attachment 60587 did not work for me. I could not access them.

    I would be EXTREMELY interested in these photos and any others that you know of from your area of Whitcombs during WW II.

    I tried to email a war museum in Egypt but never got a response.

    Is there any WW II history in Paul Cotterell's book describing Whitcomb operations? I might buy a copy if there is.

    I have located the original negatives of the Whitcomb photos in Africa that Baldwin published in their magazine. I can send you the link if interested.

    Steve
     
  11. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    For some reason, the attachments did not finish loading properly.
     
  12. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    So it just wasn't me. Sure hope Chen can send them. I would love to see what he has and any history from WW II in his area.

    Steve
     
  13. melling

    melling TrainBoard Member

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    Let's try again:
    0512.jpg
    Above is a 1944 view in Beirut, where an un-identified 65-Tonner is juxtaposed with the diminutive looking British (War Department) 25 Ton brake van, based on a Southern Railway design. Photo by K.R.M Cameron.

    0513.jpg
    The second photo was taken by D.S. Currie at a dock alongside the Suez Canal with the S.S. Clan Chisholm as a backdrop. WD 71233 (nee 1233) and a classmate are probably due to be loaded on the ship on their way to Italy. I don't know what the WS 378 designation on both locos stands for.

    Note that the two pictures show a slight difference in cab profile - this is represented in the diagrams presented earlier in this thread.
     
  14. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    I am thinking a good guess about this would be some sort of clearance issue?
     
  15. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    My guess also. The lower cab profile Whitcombs were seen in the European Theater of Operations (ETO) where tunnels and other structures were probably older than in Africa and thus I suspect smaller due to the smaller size of the early locomotives.

    [​IMG]

    From the second paragraph:

    "Continental tunnel clearances dictated the contour of the cab roof in many cases"


    Steve
     
  16. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    Fantastic Chen. Thank you so very much. Is there anything that I can help you with?

    The Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania ended up with these original negatives from Baldwin (who owned Whitcomb from 1931 until it was closed in 1952) and are not available elsewhere. Reproductions are not cheap. I'm going to buy one of the negatives of the camouflaged 65-ton locomotive in Africa and present it to our museum board to see if they will pay for more. These negatives were saved from being thrown out by Baldwin employees after the plant was closed who grabbed them out of filing caninets and even dumpsters I was told. Thank God they did.

    Please let me know about that book that your museum offers. If it contains WW II history and Whitcomb I'll want to buy it.

    http://rrmuseumpa.andornot.com/Arch...V=0&SS=0&BG=&FG=&QS=&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=utf-8

    http://rrmuseumpa.andornot.com/Arch...V=0&SS=0&BG=&FG=&QS=&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=utf-8

    http://rrmuseumpa.andornot.com/Arch...V=0&SS=0&BG=&FG=&QS=&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=utf-8

    http://rrmuseumpa.andornot.com/Arch...V=0&SS=0&BG=&FG=&QS=&OEX=ISO-8859-1&OEH=utf-8


    Steve
     
  17. melling

    melling TrainBoard Member

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    Steve, the Africa pictures are very interesting, so thanks for these links.

    Paul Cotterell's book, and his previous one on the subject "The Railways of Palestine and Israel" both try to cover a large subject, so while they have plenty of wonderful pictures (I will try to find the sources for the Whitcomb ones in the first book, which I haven't uploaded ) they cannot delve to much into details, especially the new one. Both contain only a few paragraphs relating the use of the Whitcombs in Palestine and the Sinai, in both cases as part of the single chapter devoted to the 1940s.

    I am actually (generally) familiar with Whitcomb's history, mostly from on-line sources, though this thread has certainly deepened my knowledge of the subject. I am also aware of the status of Baldwin archival preservation, as this was the most prolific supplier of locomotives to this country, both in terms of total numbers and in diversity of types.

    While I heartily would recommend the "Make Straight the Way" book to any railway enthusiast, the Whitcomb researcher would find the Tourret WW2 book much more useful. Below are a couple of source-material snippets of the type used in the compilation of the latter book.
    Whitcomb - 01.08.1944 Military Allocation - KRM Cameron Collection.jpg

    This next excerpt relates to the military-operated portion of the Haifa-Beirut-Tripoli line:
    קשיים בהפעלת קט&#1.jpg
     
  18. machinehead61

    machinehead61 TrainBoard Member

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    The very least that I can do for you.



    Is the Whitcomb information the same in both books?

    I found a numer of mistakes relating to Whitcomb history on the net which I corrected in the Wikipedia article which now stands correct to the best of my knowledge.

    This is excellent, where did it come from?

    What does "WD" stand for? The breaking down of Whitcombs I suspect was due to their Buda cylinder heads which were very prone to cracking. See elsewhere in this thread references to this problem. Thank you so much for this information, it is nearly impossible to find much information on Whitcomb history in your area.

    Steve
     
  19. melling

    melling TrainBoard Member

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    In "The Railways of Palestine and Israel" it is mentioned that the Whitcombs were regularly working freights up the line to Jerusalem, when two double-headed a train from Kantara to the junction at Lydda during the night, one of which being used on the trip to Jerusalem before returning (I failed to find evidence for this in the surviving Working Time Tables). It is also said that they virtually monooplised traffic on the Haifa-Beirut-Tripoli line until replaced by steam engines in mid 1944. The second book has even less details.

    The allocation listing is a copy from an official document, made by K.R.M Cameron, so I know little about the actual source, but a lot more of this kind of information is included in the Tourret book.

    WD stands for (the British) War Department. By the way, the writers were wrong, as the American lend-lease equipment was not technically WD-owned, which led to some difficulties post-war.
     
  20. melling

    melling TrainBoard Member

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    The following are excerpts from the memoirs of a soldier in the WW2 Middle East, as collected by Rabbi Dr. Rothschild. The text is a bit of a mess, but contains some snipets reagrding Whitcomb (not ALCo!) operations here:
     

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