I just bought a Super empire builder and my HO Atlas dual-mode decoders(#340) makes a small "electrical" noise when the throttle is just turned up(even before the locos start moving). I think it's kind of cool since it lets me know that theres power going to the loco and I selected the right engine. Besides, I use my imagination and pretend the noise is coming from the "diesel engine" inside the model.
Rick, nice to see you're so happy with your ZIMO DCC system. I certainly didn't expect a reply that fast to my request for comments from Zimo users. I wasn't sure if there were any out there yet. Are you still in N scale and if you are, what Zimo system are you using and how many and what steamers, if you have any, were you able to get decoders into? Did you put decoders in your CNR F3s? We have a dealer here in Kelowna and I have seen it in use. It is awesome and is probably the best way to go, but it is expensive.
AMEN! I too have a Super Empire set which I purchased in late July. I have managed to squeeze out the time and wherewithall to date to put decoders in about 8 or 9 engines. I have noticed NO NOISE as I posted above. You know, its funny. Since this thread has come about, I find myself pulling out the various engines I have "decoderizated" and run 'em w/ my ear following around the track listening for noise. I swear... they are more silent than when I was running pure DC. But... whatever. Each has different experiences, expectations, and degrees of satisfaction w/ thier modeling. For me.... any engine that pulls the white off of rice; keeps running like a clock; doesnt jump the track in favor of dirt roads; and truly captures that classic C&O look, can make all the noise it wants! -Kitbash [ 03. September 2002, 23:55: Message edited by: Kitbash ]
I'm not sure if I am the Rick you are addressing, but no I don't have Zimo. We have the original Digitrax chief (over kill for our smaller layout but will work nicely with our newer larger N scale layout). As long as you buy a medium to top of the line DCC system, you will be happy with whatever you buy. And if you are like some, you will preach that DCC systems virtues stronger than the most Conservative Christian testimonial.
Yes, I was addressing you Rick, Trainboard Staff Member #1180 and because you answered my querry asking for comments from Zimo users, I assumed that you had Zimo DCC. Sorry! Anyway, whether its Digitrax or Zimo now doesn't matter, I'd still like to know if you have any steamers that you have installed any kind of decoders in and whether or not you were able to put decoders in your CNR green and yellow F3 ABs, if you still have them. Perhaps I'm having trouble interpretating your last statement (quote) above Rick, but are you telling me that if I buy DCC it will turn me into a DCC....Dogone Christian Conservative Virtuous Systems Testimonial Preacher?
Gary, I see the distinction you are making between 'character' and property. I know that motors don't really have personalities, and I also know my computer can't hear me or give a damn - but I still 'vocalise opinions' to it . Kitbash Are you sure they were being run on pure DC before? Most non-PWM train controllers I've known used some sort of 'pulse' output, at least at low speeds, to improve slow running. This was generally derived from the AC and made most motors hum noticeably at twice the mains frequency - 100...120 Hz (depending on country). ANY decoder should be an improvement on them. Following Rick's post above, it is probably worth repeating again here that internet lists and forums are to a great extent where people come for help and advice with a problem. This can give the impression that type xxx has a problem with yyy, when in reality that 'problem' only affects a tiny percentage of users significantly. (Yeah, it's a bummer if you're one of them, but no-one says life is risk-free.) Back on topic, for DCC the only decision not easily (cheaply) changed is which command station to go with. By and large, decoders are mixable and cheap enough to 'make mistakes' with. So if decoder A in loco 1 is too noisy, you can try that decoder in engine 2 and buy a different (SR) decoder for loco 1. Worst case - decoder A ($20?) goes in the bin .
Gary as you're asking Rick (N scaler) about installing a decoder in his F3 I assume you're interested how this works. I currently have 9 Kato F3 A/B units all DCC equipped. It's either a hell of work to mill the frames by yourself or you go the easier (but more expensive) way and buy replacement frames from Aztec. They advertise in Model Railroader so you should find their address. If you follow their instructions then it's a 20minute task to convert the loco. I used Digitrax DN93, DN140, DZ120 and DN142 decoders. If you use one of the small Lenz decoders the milling task is even easier. However these locos tend to run a bit jerky and noisy on common DC. Unfortunately converting them to DCC doesn't enhance their performance. (at least not on my nine F3's) Installing decoders in steamer is often impossible because of the limited space. The only one I have is a Kato Mikado with the decoder in the tender. All I can say I will never do it again. Maybe Aztec has a replacement frame as well. have fun Sandro
Check out Aztec, as I am pretty sure their prices are very reasonable for a new frame (you send your original one in, and they send a new one back). As to testimonials after the purchase of a DCC system, you only have to hang around DCC forums. You see it all the time. After you get your system and use it, you mellow out and realize there are other good ones out there. I don't have a Zimo and wouldn't get one. Not because it isn't a good system, it is. But I prefer to own what others around me own so that when I do run into a problem I have many shoulders to weep on. Cheers!
That is a very good point Rick, use what other people around you are using....if they are happy with it. That is why I would go with ZIMO if I want to spend $7000 to go DCC and equip all my engines. The ZIMO dealer for Canada lives on the other side of town from me and has an awesome fully equiped ZIMO DCC layot. There are a number of people in the area using Digitrax, but none of them have his technical knowledge. For the benefit of those of you using Kato Unitrack like me, we tested Zimo on Kato Unitrack and it worked fine through #6 and #4 switches and even a double crossover. It also worked fine through my Polarity monitoring and lightboard signaling system diode matrixes on both the blocks and turnouts. So I would bet that all the other DCC systems will work just fine on Kato Unitrack. I would certainly buy one of the Aztec milled out frames to see what they did and then do the rest of my 12 F3s myself as I am am capable of doing so and have all the equipment. The ease of putting decoders in my 36 steamers will ultimately be the deciding factor, not cost, of whether I go to DCC or not, judging by the problem Sandro says he had with his Kato Mikado. I'm not bragging about numbers of engines here as seven of my steamers are Mikados, I'm just trying to let all you guys who are being upbeat and giving me support, know the daunting task I am faced with if I go to DCC. Thanks for the encouragement.
Thanks for the info Sandro. Rick also jumped in on the frame change out info and I would certainly do that on one frame to see what AZTEK is doing and then do the rest myself as I am equiped to do so. You say you have 9 Kato F3AB units and they all run a bit jerky? That is strange! All of mine are as quiet and smooth on straight DC as any of my newer diesels like the new LifeLike C-liners and GP7s, Kato F2s and Atlas Phase II GP9s. I doubt that the weight lost in the milled out area would make a difference, but it would be interesting to know just how much weight was removed. Try buying a new Kato F3 motor and install it in one of your A or B units and see if it runs better than the others. If you see a noticable difference do the following. It will be a lot of work, but do the same procedure with the same motor in all of your other units. If the same motor makes all of the other engines run better, then pull the motors out of all of them and send them back to Kato. Ask them if they can tell you what is the matter with them. Sometimes they replace them on warranty, or they may tell you that the varnish insulation is falling off the copper wires of the windings for some reason and causing shorts, making the engine run jerky. If that is so, would you have any ideas why you think this might be happening on only your engines? When engines do that, you certainly are not having fun! You are quite right, the only place you can put decoders in steamers easily is in the tenders or by difficultly removing a lot of the engine weight. I have tested the spacing in all of my steamer tenders, using the smallest LENZ decoder I could get my hands on and also could not find enough room in a large number of the tenders without removing some of the tender weight. I am waiting for smaller decoders from ZIMO to be made and then will go through the exercise all over again. Then as you say, I will be having fun. Gary
Gary the F3's are noisy and jerky compared to much newer engines such as SD40-2, C44, SD90. Of course there's about 10 years between their construction. Also the contacts between the trucks and the frames are different. Not yet these small copper (or brass or whatever) strips as on newer engine. This might be the reason for running jerky. As my layout mostly sees modern trains I run my F3's just occasionally and don't care about the noise. Check this nice custom painted ABBA set (DCC ans MT couplers): As for your steamers maybe you should call John from Aztec. He might be able to help you. Also in case you send him lot's of frames to be milled just asked for special prices. I had 50% off when I sent him 35 locos a couple of years back. have fun Sandro
May I ask a question even though I model in HO? OK, Thanks guys. I have used a couple of 12 volt car batteries that are maintained by a charger controlled through a voltage regulator to operate my layout. There is no alternating current connected anywhere except the charger, and it only "turns on" a few times a month, depending on how many engines I'm running at a time, and how often. The rehostats I am using will slow my steamers down to where it can take up to 30 seconds to turn a driver one full revolution. I have never had any problems running double headers, or even up to 4 engines at the head end, 2 midway, and three pushing. I am well satisfied with performance. You guys have made me nervous saying I will burn up my DC motors unless I install DCC! My question is this: I have been told I could not operate any brand of a DCC control on my present pure 12 volt 300 ampere hour power supply. Why is this, if the statement is true?
Watash I don't think this thread is scale specific - just happens a couple of the protagonists are N gaugers. Not sure where you got that from. If the batteries are connected in series then you could be putting nearly 30 volts out at times which is obviously risky - but the train would probably limit the damage by leaving the track (and house probably) at the first corner . (A fully charged car battery has a voltage of 14 to 14.5 Volts.) If the batteries are used singly or in parallel then 14 Volts isn't going to do any harm . Truish. You could actually run an NCE system off your batteries with a little care. This (PB-105) can take a DC input of 18-24 Volts DC, with an ABSOLUTE maximum of 28 Volts. Two car batteries in series and fully charged could go over this (see above) but there are some ways to lose a few volts (eg. using several diodes in series). I expect other systems will be similar because the first thing most do is rectify and smooth the AC (usually about 15 Volts) which gives about 20 Volts DC, but you should check before buying (You are going to, aren't you ). (The DC needs to be 18 V or more because, in the smaller scales, DCC runs at about 14 Volts on the track and you need a bit more to cater for drops within the command system.) [ 05. September 2002, 19:09: Message edited by: Mike Sheridan ]
Loy's Toys has a great area for DCC topics and I have given one reference. Watash you may want to check out amperage and voltage requirements and power. This is a great site for anyone who wants to upgrade their knowledge base. http://www.loystoys.com/power-supply.html#Amperage Just hit the home button to pull up all the other topics and there are a lot of them. I found this to be a great discussion on why not to have too much power, with DCC. Check it out.
Sandro......The age of the motors on the Kato F3s isn't going to make any difference if they haven't been fiddled with and the older Kato F3s had a perfectly adequate pickup system. As I said before, all of my old F3s run as smooth and quiet as any of my newer diesels. Motor design on your F3s is not the problem and neither is the pickup system. I'm sorry that you don't know what the problem is. It's a shame to have spent all that money on a custom paint job and have a poor running engine under it, even if you don't run it very often or care what it sounds like. I certainly hope that the same problem doesn't develop with your new engines. Try the motor test I suggested! I have to be very careful to keep all my older engines in good running condition because I'm only modeling the steam to diesel transition era up to 1960. That's why I can't have any newer engines. That era also restricts me to a small number of engines as far as diesels are concerned. So I specialize in steam. If you have any CPR Mikados ( Kato) they should probably have a winter cab on them to be prototypically correct, unless you are modeling an engine number that had a summer cab. The LLW could handle a prototypically correct CPR Mikado conversion for you, for about the same price as a custom paint job. I'll try to get a picture posted on the board of one of the seven CNR ones I converted, two for customers. I also convert the new Bachmann 2-8-0 Consolodation to a CPR or CNR winter cab, CN 2752. Nice rock work! Are those the colors that the Alaska railway was running in the 50s? My road is strictly CNR and green and yellow on the engines and coaches and I run straight DC. As for pictures, I guess I'll just have to make the effort to set up a website so I can I can post pictures conveniently like the rest of you do. I have no doubt that John at AZTEC is a good resource to fall back on if you find it too difficult to do what he does, but I don't have any problems milling engine chassis, kitbashing, or doing electronics yet. However, soldering a broken motor winding wire back together is not an easy task, but it is an alternative to changing out the motor. Having fun Gary
Gary I have a CPR Mike (Kato). It's simply re-lettered. I didn't pay any attention to CP specific details. I buy the stuff for the fun of it and not for 100% accuracy. The Alaska locos should be the correct color. They look better than on the picture (scanned image). feel free to check out the picture galleries of my homepage to see more train stuff (prototype, N scale, G scale)
Watash you could go with your batteries as a power source. But most of the DCC system need 15-25V DC input (or 18-28V AC). A fully loaded batterie provides around 13.8V. So you either run with a low voltage (which might indeed create some problems) or you connect two batteries in series which probably gives too much voltage (27.6). Also make sure you add a fuse !! These batteries will deliver 80-100amps if shortcut. If you consider all these things it might be an easier solution to get a power supply.
I started out when HO was a 6 volt system, using 6 volt batteries. We would charge the batteries over night. When 12 volt came along, we could send our motors in and have them re-wound to 12 volt for free. So I did. Then someone came out with a selenium rectifyer power supply that would work with the rehostats we already had. (I had also made a carbon pile type rehostat that worked pretty well too.) That power supply puts out 15 volts at 15 or 20 amps. Dad and I never tried to run any of our engines at full throttle, so there was no danger of high voltage. I was given an MRC power supply for a birthday, and tried it, but it seemed to run the engines very slowly if at all with a long train. Only three engines could be run with it at a time anyway, and that required nearly full throttle to make them run. Some of the guys brought some engines over and we ran 11 engines with no drop in power on my battery system, but none of the "store bought" power supplies would come anywhere close to this. When we got all the engines running at the same time, we were only using about 80% throttle to get up to full passenger speed. It was only a test though. If I convert to DCC it will cost me 98 times the cost of DCC plus the "sender units and throttles". I understand my rehostats would no no longer work for speed control. You say the advantage is I can run one engine up to couple to another engine for double heading, with DCC. I have been doing this for years. I have even coupled an 0-4-0 to a BigBoy and run them together which was horrifying to the club! Everyone started yelling that I can't do that, but I had been doing it several years on DC. I am trying to find out what advantage there would be for me to spend several thousand dollars for DCC, and more to have all my engines converted, or take all the time to do it before I die. I will turn 72 this month, so there had better be more advantage than I understand at this point. I'm not being ugly about DCC, I'm trying to understand what makes it so great to me?
WATASH, after reading your history in model railroading and the last comment in your post ....I would say NOTHING!
I'm with Gary on that one Watash. Sounds like what you've got is both what you want and what you need . If it ain't broke don't fix it .
