As promised, here is my query to the other group, about this topic: ==================== I know this topic has come up time and again, but I haven't had luck getting the search function to find the answer... PROJECT: determine what is the 'optimum working knuckle coupler' to convert various generation Kato F3s/F7s from Rapidos or Kato knuckle couplers on the front pilot to a 'better' knuckle coupler, and if so, which coupler. - - - - Anyone, feel free to post your thoughts to my research questions below . I'll keep a copy of the answers, make pictures if possible, and then re-post for all to enjoy. Thx, all! - - - - - =========================================================== Converting Kato F unit front coupler Rapido to Micro-Trains =========================================================== (1) Seems that Micro-Trains MT 2004 coupler is the recommended conversion front coupler for Kato F units. However, it also seems that according to the MT website, this is for the newer Kato F units and not to the older "obsolete" Kato F units, which MT recommends to use MT 1159. Q1: Researching to determine - how much cutting/nipping/enlarging of the Kato front coupler pilot opening is necessary in order to get these to fit? Q2: Researching - which generation of Kato F units starting using the newer MT 2004 coupler conversion, And what were the last run of Kato F units that required the MT 1159? (2) I've also heard that Z scale MT 905 couplers may be a good way to go for better appearance, as this coupler is smaller in size. However, Q3: I've also heard that perhaps the Z scale MT 905 coupler box is a more difficult or not possible to install, and perhaps it's better to stay with the N scale MT 2004 coupler box? Thx.... =========================================================================== Converting Kato F unit front coupler Rapido to working Kato knuckle coupler =========================================================================== 1) Kato offers newer knuckle couplers, part numbers 923180, magnetic coupler set short and long shanks, these are apparently used in the F3s issued in 2005. URL for a picture of this currently used Kato knuckle coupler: Q4: Anyone know if these parts would work or not in the 1996 Kato F7s? Ii appears that the coupler clip may be *different* on these newest 2005 F units? I've heard that Kato is notorious for changing the tooling over time, and that spare parts from different runs of the Kato F units wouldn't necessarily fit other runs. 2) It seems Kato is long out of stock of their part 923140, which is the original knuckle coupler used on the *1999* run of Kato F units. Q5: Anyone know if this part number would have fit the *1996* run of Kato F units? URL for a picture of this part number: The above clip seems to be the exact one that Tom Hynds was using. - - - - For reference, the Kato part that mount the Rapidos on the 1996 F units look as follows. I can't tell from the picture angle, if this is the same or different mounting clip compared to the one above. URL for a picture of this part number 923020: =================== Thx, all, I'll keep you all updated of any knowledge that comes in, and keep track and report back on any advice and findings that anyone is able to send to me. [ January 04, 2006, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: atsf_arizona ]
John- I have used the newer kit on the 1st run F7's (1992) with success. I guess after doing that, I assumed that the newer kit would fit all. But then again, maybe not...
John, That was (or looks close enough) to the clip in my F unit. I had to shave the posts to the left and right of the center post where the rapido came off. My unit never had a knuckle coupler, Kato or otherwise. And not knowing any better I used the MT2004. It's in and working, but it WAS a BUGBEAR to do!
John: The MT Z scale couplers are too small to fit the Kato F units. It's the way the coupler box is designed on the Kato F units. The MT 2004-1 coupler will fit all Kato F units. Stay cool and run steam.....
That's interesting Tom. I was under the impression you needed to use the MTL 1159 on all but the newest F3's (and the impending F7's). I figure there is more then one way to skin a cat when it comes to fitting these but hadn't got around to having a look at it. Might have to now...
Thx for the input, guys. I've received emails offline that Micro-Trains recommends using the MT 1159 on the older, Rapido-equipped Kato F units. From photos of that successful install, it seems at this point that MT 1159 is the way to go on the older Kato Fs. (I'm not sure, but Tony Burzio's post earlier in this thread, might be referring to the MT 1159?) From the MT website, it says: - use MT 1159 for "obsolete" Kato F units - Use MT 2004 for Kato F units The web site, however, doesn't define which Kato run is the last "obsolete" Kato F unit using MT 1159, and which is the first of the Kato Fs using MT 2004. Can anyone here define that? If not, perhaps I'll call MT and see if someone knowledgeable there can answer. I may buy a MT 1159 and a MT 2004 and compare. Will report back. (smile) P.S. the MT web site section documenting exactly what is in a 1159 or 2004 is down, so this sparse info, with sparse MT comments, is all that they have on their web site right now. I have found the following website from a European modeler, which does have some good info on various MT coupler installations, including the MT 2004 (not specific to Kato F units): http://www.modelbaneteknik.dk/n-scale/kobl/mtcouplers-e.htm [ January 05, 2006, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: atsf_arizona ]
Here's shots of that MT 1159 install: Thx to Sitchad for permission to share the photos, which were posted on a Weekend Foto Fun some time ago. [ January 05, 2006, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: atsf_arizona ]
By converting these Kato's to MT couplers, do you also get close coupling? I have a set of F3s and a new set of F7s on order that I want to close couple.
Gary - I bought the couplers based on the list on the MT site. It lists the 2004's, so that's what I bought. The 1159's would probably work better and I would not have had to do so much surgery on that loco. Didn't come out too bad though, considering it was my first MT conversion. It could have been A LOT worse. But as I said, it was a real bugbear to do! Do yourself a favor - with the older Kato F units use the 1159's - probably a much easier install...
SD70BNSF, To get close coupling between the Kato F units, the 'accepted standard' for a long time has been to use short shank Unimates on the back of the A unit and on the B units. The shots above, that's exactly what Sitchad used on the back of his A units and B units. Don't use the MT 1128s that MT recommends on the back of the A and the Bs, that will give you too much space. Also, the standard Kato back-of-A and B unit couplers gives a too far a distance between the coupled units for most tastes. Here's another shot of the Unimate equipped back-of-A and B units, this on the 1999 run of Kato F units: Comparing these model photos to shots of real F unit coupling distances, looks like the Unimates are really close to giving the actual spacing on the prototype; it's just a hair longer space, but can't be seen enough to notice without a N scale ruler (smile). And it's closer than the coupling distances you can get on Intermountain Fs using the Red Caboose 51060 coupler (see below). As I have stated in other posts, N scale F units have so little room at the back, that I prefer truck mount couplers for close coupling, hence my current decision to continue to invest in Kato Fs (even though the upcoming IM freight Santa Fe Fs are likely to be beautiful). The Unimates for the Kato Fs are by Red Caboose, part number 51000, and the desired ones for back-of-Kato A units and B units are the short shank ones on the far right: Note that *contrary to the above photo*, when using the above coupler on a Kato F unit rear, a short 'nub' from the casting sprue needs to be left on the T shank of the coupler, in order for the Rapido coupler spring to have something to hold onto (if that's not clear, post back and I'll explain further). ============ Just so you don't get confused, *don't* get these Unimate couplers #51060 shown below for use on the rear Kato F units truck mount coupler. The truck mount Kato back coupler pocket has no provision for a 'post' on which to mount these particular couplers. However, these Red Caboose 51060 couplers *are* the ones you need to use for close-coupling the rear body-mount Intermountain Fs units (smile). Hope this helps! [ January 05, 2006, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: atsf_arizona ]
John: Thanks for the posts concerning the unimates. I now have Chad's ATSF F-7's on the JJJ&E that were shown in the above photo's. When I have time I'll take some photo's of the underside of the F-7's to show how they were mounted. Another addition to the "to do" list. Stay cool and run steam.... [ January 05, 2006, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Powersteamguy1790 ]
Thanks John! (smile back) A question just for added clarity: I need to use the short shank unimates even with the new Kato F3s (2003? run) and the upcoming re-run of F7s? (these have and will have the Kato knuckle coupler already installed).
Hi, SD70BNSF, Yes, for the rear of the Kato F3/F7 A unit and both ends of the B units, you should use the Red Caboose short shank Unimates part number 51000 for all runs of the Kato F units, from the oldest runs all the way thru to the newest 2006 runs. Even though the Kato F units from 1999 and newer have knuckle couplers installed on the rear and on the B units, the inter-unit spacing with these couplers is just a bit too far apart for a real prototypical appearance; model photos such as this Kato web site photo show what I mean: (BTW, I believe the stock Kato inter-unit spacing is not as bad or as far apart as the out-of-the-box Intermountain F3/F7 inter-unit spacing. While I've not measured with a scale ruler, it appears the stock IM inter-unit spacing is even larger, at least to my eye). Compare this with the previous post of the close-coupled Unimate Kato F units: I believe the visual difference is worth the Unimate installation effort. (smile). Some experience advice for installing the Unimates: ========== 1) The back of the F units are angled in such a way that there is plenty of clearance and no binding on my 12" radius curves. Note: I don't have any 9.75" curves on my layout to test if there would be binding with this combination at that smaller radius level. 2) Be careful when twist-removing the Kato knuckle couplers. There is a small plastic 'post' in the Kato coupler box for the coupler spring for the T shank coupler. That small plastic post can be easily broken off during Kato coupler removal if you're not careful. You do need that post to hold the coupler spring in the coupler box. 3) If you do break off that post, it's not end of world, just super-glue it back on, as there is no appreciable stress on that post, especially when the locomotives are all pulling forward. 4) Re: installing the Unimates: 4a) Don't cut the Unimate T shank off flush from the casting sprue. Leave a short 'post' on the T shank of the coupler, so the spring has a 'post' to hold onto. 4b) Cut a *small* 'diagonal angle' on *two* diagonal-opposite corners of the T shank. This will make twist-installing the Unimate much easier, and less stressful on the Kato coupler box. There is no loss of strength in the coupler's ability to hold the load. If it's not clear what I mean by that, just email/post back here and I'll explain further. ============ This Unimate installation produces, IMHO, the best (closest) N scale F unit inter-unit coupling available today using standard parts. Hope all this helps! [ January 08, 2006, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: atsf_arizona ]
John: Very nice explanation on the installation of the Unimates on a Kato F unit. Stay cool and run steam.....
Kato F unit coupler compare 3/9/06 Hi, all, I've finally gotten back to continuing my research into working front knuckle coupler options for the N scale Kato F unit. As of 3/9/06, my bottom line for front knuckle coupler options on Kato F unit: ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1) The MT 2004 apparently works well as nose coupler for all runs of the N scale Kato F unit. 2) The older MT 1159 kit is probably not needed, unless one is running long NTrak trains and needs the extra strength given by the special MT body mounting clip supplied in the MT 1159 kit. 3) One can also use the stock Kato knuckle coupler off of E units and PA1s, they seem to be exactly the same coupler as the stock Kato F unit knuckle coupler. ----------------------------------------------------------------- (I'm open to any corrections on the opinions given in this post - smile) ============================================ Here's a group shot, comparing the resulting appearance. In the following photos, left to right, are: Kato knuckle coupler; Micro-Trains 2004; Micro-Trains 1015 using MT 1159 kit: Kato knuckle coupler; Micro-Trains 2004; Micro-Trains 1015 using MT 1159 kit: (For improved appearance, I cut off the standard MT magnetic coupler pins). Here's some closeups: ============================================ Stock Kato coupler (i.e. I replaced the orig Rapido with a stock Kato knuckle coupler off an 2000 run Kato E unit): IMHO, the stock Kato coupler (I re-used the front coupler from my converted-to-Micro-Trains Kato E units and PA1s) looks better, as it is smaller than the rather huge-looking MT couplers. The stock Kato coupler is stiffer in side-to-side-swivel than the MTs. While not a problem with the F units, I and others have experienced that the stiffer Kato coupler, body-mounted on the nose of the Kato E units and PA1s, and used on smaller radius curves (especially non-easemented curves)..... can knock the leading truck-mount Kato passenger cars off the rails at the entry to the curves. In those cases, using the MT couplers below will probably resolve that problem. ================================================= Here is the Micro-Trains 2004 coupler: The MT 2004 is a smooth, easy install on the Kato F unit, just a drop in... albeit, it does look rather big. The MT 2004 worked just fine as a slide-in replacement into the space available on these 1996 era Kato freight F units - re-using the stock Kato coupler clip. The MT 2004 is made specifically as the MT replacement for stock Kato couplers on diesel locomotives - as a result, the MT 2004 coupler shank is vertically offset to account for the lower height of the Kato coupler mount point. It also looks like MT made the MT 2004 coupler box *smaller* than the MT 1015 coupler box, in order for the MT 2004 to fit properly into the Kato coupler clip and space available. I suspect that the Kato F unit coupler clip and space available hasn't changed over the years. The front coupler clip and space available seems to be the same for my 1996, 1999, and 2000 era Kato F units, E units, and PA1s. (I don't have any of the 1992 run, or new 2005 or 2006 run, of Kato F3s / F7s / PA1s, to compare). On my layout with 12" non-easemented curves hidden in the tunnels, the much more free-swiveling MT 2004s solved the Kato E unit / Kato PA1 problem of the 'stiff Kato stock coupler knocking leading passenger car off the rails'. Therefore, one place that I use the MTs is on the nose of the trailing A unit. I tend to use the stock Kato coupler on the nose of the leading A unit, where the smaller size lends a slightly better appearance. - - - - - - - - Note: The Micro-Trains web site recommends a MT 2000 kit for the Kato F unit. The MT 2000 kit consists of a MT 2004 for the front, and a MT 1128 for the rear, along with the requisite 'four toothpicks' for easily removing the Kato shell. (As I noted earlier in various threads, I prefer to use Red Caboose short-shank Unimates, rather than the MT 1128s, on the rear of the F units. The Unimates provide much better appearing, much closer inter-unit spacing than the MT 1128s on the rear). Therefore, for the front couplers of the F's, I found it's cheaper to just buy the MT 2004 kit which has qty = 4 couplers, as I've no need for the MT 1128s. - - - - - - - - - Note: the MT 1015 is *not* the correct coupler to use on Kato F units, *unless* you also use the older, out-of-production MT 1159 installation kit (see below). The MT 1015 doesn't have the vertical offset coupler shank that the MT 2004 has; the MT 1015 coupler box also appears to be bigger and would not fit into the Kato coupler clip. =================================== Here is the Micro-Trains 1015, installed as part of the hard-to-find, older MT 1159 kit: The older, hard-to-find, out-of-production MT 1159 / MT 1015 kit for the Kato F unit works fine, however, it does require some cutting of the F unit's pilot above the MT coupler box to install. You can see that in the above photos. The MT 1159 kit consists of a MT 1015 for the front coupler, and includes a replacement body-mount clip to attach the MT 1015 front coupler very firmly to the chassis. (The MT 1159 kit also includes a MT 1128 for the rear of the F unit). Because of that front clip, according to Tony Burzio of San Diego Model RR Museum, the MT 1159 still has a valid role to play for Kato F unit use on long NTrak trains. Tony has noted that when running long 100+ car NTrak trains, this stronger MT 1159 nose clip is much better suited to handling the strain on the coupler (compared to the MT 2004). (Thx, Tony, for that tip!) If not needing the 1159 kit's stronger coupler mounting clip..... IMHO the easily available MT 2004's probably suffice nicely, and you can eliminate the need to search for the out-of-production, hard-to-find, more expensive MT 1159 kit. ================================= In summary, I observe when viewed together, they're all fairly close in appearance: Left to right: stock Kato coupler; MT 2004; MT 1015 which is part of the older MT 1159 kit Left to right: stock Kato coupler; MT 2004; MT 1015 which is part of the older MT 1159 kit ================================= In a future post, I will take some pictures of the MT 1159 kit's nose clip, and compare it to the stock Kato F unit / E unit / PA1 coupler clip, to better document what I was talking about above regarding the 'stronger' MT 1159. I'd be happy to hear any additional experiences - especially if you can confirm/deny that the old 1992 Kato Fs, or the new 2005/2006 Kato F3/F7s/PA1s have the same (or different) coupler clip and space available. The above is just my experience and my opinions - pls send corrections or suggestions. I hope this may be of help, and save some time for you. It was was fun building this post. (smile) [ March 09, 2006, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: atsf_arizona ]
