Kato FEF and Peco code 80 - oh dear.

bobthebear Jan 29, 2015

  1. bobthebear

    bobthebear TrainBoard Supporter

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    My layout is quite old, just like me! It was built here in UK when Peco code 80 was king. All locos, including brass, run perfectly well through large radius and curves switches except this new Kato FEF. It throws itself in the dirt at nearly every turnout, and don't even ask it to reverse through any!
    I have checked the obvious: gauge of the wheels and with an NMRA track gauge, the switches. As I say, EVERYTHING else runs through them fine.
    Beautiful loco, but unless I rip the layout up (20 years work), it's on the shelf!
    I wonder if Kato tried it on track other than their own before releasing it?
     
  2. rrjim1

    rrjim1 TrainBoard Member

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    I have the same Peco code 80 track and switches as you do and yes everything I own even the newest modern locos run great on my layout. I would guess an axle is out of place, I would place the loco were I could see the wheels on the track to see if each one is touching the rails. You could also run the loco real slow threw a switch and try to see were the problem is.
     
  3. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Keying on "the throws itself in the dirt at nearly every turnout" My first thought is something is catching on the turnouts since everything else seems to navigate through them okay. You did not report any issue on normal track so something is catching on the frogs or points of the turnouts that is hanging too low. Could even be the tender drawbar or some errant wiring between the tender and loco. Pilot or coupler hanging too low also could be a culprit. I would try to see what part of the loco leaves the rails first as somewhere ahead of, or in that area might be the issue. Also there have been reports of the Kobo shops versions having issues with the screws either missing or loose. Maybe one not properly seated hanging too low.
     
  4. bobthebear

    bobthebear TrainBoard Supporter

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    Thanks Guys.
    I've had a chance at last to investigate properly. There were two reasons why it was de-railing going forwards. The front truck wheels are just too fine for code 80, so I have replaced them (not painted yet). Also there are 4 bars sticking down behind the front driver which were catching the point blades. I have filed them down. See photo. I will look in my bits box and replace the rear truck wheels too. Hopefully that will cure reversing! 20150129_161133.jpg
     
  5. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    On my NTRAK modules I have had to shim the guard rails opposite the frogs on most of my Peco code 80 switches to prevent derailments. The Peco switches allow for a slightly narrower gauge wheel. I can't run my old UK Peco wagons over them now as they will now derail. They have a narrower gauge.
    [​IMG]
     
  6. John Moore

    John Moore TrainBoard Supporter

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    Well all is well that ends well as the old saying goes. Almost always there has been something too low in my cases, whether a trip pin or something else. Never had an issue with the Peco turnouts but I have on occasion had an issue with Atlas, but very infrequent. Main issue I have had is with the Atlas rerailers becoming Atlas derailers that is until I took a Dremel to them and routed out the flangeways slightly deeper.
     
  7. robert3985

    robert3985 TrainBoard Member

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    It's always a roll of the dice with any new, out-of-the-box motive power being compatible with my tight-NMRA-toleranced hand-built turnouts. In the 30 years that I've been building my own, and using RailCraft/ME code 55 and code 40 flex, I've only had half a handful of locos that didn't need something done to them to run smoothly through my turnouts.

    First thought would be that there's something "wrong" with my turnouts, but ALL of my rolling stock runs perfectly through them. The vast majority of problems with motive power is that almost all of them have out-of-gauge wheelsets, whereas I can just assume that rolling stock, being less complex, has wheelsets that are generally perfectly in gauge.

    The Kato FEF's that are now on my layout are one of the very very few engines that ran perfectly and smoothly through my turnouts fresh out of the box. I checked the gauge on all of the axles just to see if it was true, and YES...it was true...all the wheelsets were perfectly in gauge...a rarity.

    As to flanges being "too fine" to run on code 80 track...what does THAT mean????? The height of the rail has NOTHING to do with whether fine flanges will function properly. However, bad trackwork such as unevenly joined rails, will definitely cause finer flanges to not work well, whereas pizza cutter flanges might function okay.

    Too bad ya gotta change out the leading truck's beautiful, properly proportioned wheelsets to run on your track since they are one of the very nice things about the appearance of the Kato FEF3.

    By the way, I'll be 66 years old in May. Portions of my layout are over 30 years old. When I'm working on my model railroad, there's always an Optivisor on my head nowadays, and my old layout runs just fine! :D

    Cheerio!
    Bob Gilmore
     
  8. r_i_straw

    r_i_straw Mostly N Scale Staff Member

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    I think the pilot wheels on the FEF are too narrow and drop down into the wide flangeways on the Peco code 80 switches. It has nothing to do with the fine flange but the more prototype width of the tire. Like I pointed out above, the Peco switches are made to accept wheel sets with a slightly narrower gauge than the NMRA standard. My UK profile rolling stock does not like my hand laid switches either because of the narrow flangways.
     
  9. Point353

    Point353 TrainBoard Member

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    The one exception that comes to mind is Arnold Rapido track, where the wheels rode on the deep flanges through the gaps in the frogs.
    It may not have looked good, but it worked great.
    [​IMG]
     

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  10. bobthebear

    bobthebear TrainBoard Supporter

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    Hi Guys.
    Thanks for all the feedback.
    Quite ofter the problem wasn't the frog, but the wheels riding up over the curved blade, mainly the front truck, which then dragged the drivers over too. Fitting "pizza cutter" wheels (now painted black) on the front truck has almost cured the problem, plus removing those pegs (what the hell were they for?).
    Never had problems with Peco switches in 45 years of n scale use, so I suppose it was a bit harsh to give equal blame!
    Cheers, Bob.
     
  11. rrjim1

    rrjim1 TrainBoard Member

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    The only problem I have had with my original Peco code 80 switches, were with pizza cutter wheels. They would sometimes pick the frog point, I just trimmed about 10 ths off the frog point and that fixed the problem. I now run FVM wheel sets and don't have to trim the points of my new switches. They do drop down a little before the frog but that doesn't seem to be a problem running and backing up 30-45 car trains.

    Glad you at least got your new loco to stay on your track, nothing is more frustration than to have a brand new loco out of the box that doesn't run well on your layout!
     
  12. randgust

    randgust TrainBoard Member

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    Bob, put a small straightedge across the stock rail to the frog and check the vertical alignment of the points. If they are 'down' or bent down a bit (as little as .005) it takes very little additional provocation for .020 flanges to climb over. If you've solved the problem with a deeper-flanged wheel, that's a clue.

    My Atlas 4-4-0 found similar issues with Peco switches on the 'new' Hickory Valley module that never existed before and I found myself chasing gremlins. All C55 Electrofrog mediums. I had to tweak wheelsets, add weight to the front axle of the truck, shim switches, bend points.... Works fine now, but again, that was kind of locomotive that you are bound and determined you're going to make it work...
     
  13. bobthebear

    bobthebear TrainBoard Supporter

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    Good idea! I will have a look as that makes sense. Thanks Mate!
     
  14. railtwister

    railtwister TrainBoard Member

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    I just sent my Kato/Kobo DCC FEF-3 back for a refund this afternoon - the thing had a mind of it's own! When I first opened the box, one of the elephant ears was loose on the body, and one of the screws holding the driver retaining plate was laying loose in the bottom of the box. I fixed that easily enough, and it would run sort of OK for a lap or two around the layout, but then would run erratically as if the track or wheels were dirty (they weren't, though). Then it would lose control when running on DCC, so I tried it on DC, only to find I had no control below half throttle. It also didn't need much of a reason to come off the track on my T-Trak modules, and really bounced and clattered through the Kato double-crossover, so I decided I didn't need the aggravation. It's probably going to be about a fifty dollar lesson, counting the loss of shipping charges both ways, plus probable restocking fees, but I think steam locos are just not practical in N scale if you are looking for smooth, reliable operation. I'm also having second thoughts about DCC and N scale in general, especially when compared to other scales (I also have an S scale layout, plus HO and On30 modules). The T-track is still the easiest of them all on my sore back though...

    Bill in FtL
     
  15. robert3985

    robert3985 TrainBoard Member

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    I run N-scale steam as a major part of my operations on my portable modular/sectional N-scale layout, and have zero problems with either DCC or N-scale steam engines.

    My operating scheme will eventually duplicate a day between Evanston Wyoming and Ogden Utah, and include trains pulled by Big Boys, Challengers, 2-8-0's, TTT 2-10-2's, FEF3's, FEF2's, Light and Heavy MacArthurs and GS-3's, GS-4's, MT-4's, and other SP steam in Ogden. Helpers will be exclusively 3700 class Challengers, with a good portion of trains (both freight and passenger) being pulled by various diesels and turbines along with the steam engines.

    I have collected over the years many brass steam engines, but lately, I've sold some of them off in favor of better pulling Athearn Big Boys and Challengers. The brass engines still include UP and SP Consolidations, FEF3's, FEF2's, GS-3's MT-4's and Light MacArthurs. I still don't have any Heavy UP Mac's or TTT 2-10-2's....but I'm thinking a lot about how to make those happen.

    Plastic, includes Athearn Big Boys and Challengers, Kato GS-4's and now the great running, great pulling and great looking Kato FEF3's. Since the really heavy freights were pulled in my time period by Big Boys, or diesel/turbine power helped with a 3700 Class Challenger pushing on the rear, probably 2/3rds of all my freights will have N-scale steam engines either on the front or helping on the rear. Three daily locals will be pulled by 2-8-0's and Light Mac's...and will be doing a lot of picking up and setting out cars...so they absolutely HAVE to be reliable...and they are.

    Although my steam engines (as well as my diesels) usually require a bit of tweaking before they'll run perfectly on my layout, after I've adjusted them, they run smoothly and reliably through all of my trackage. No difference whatsoever between steam and diesels as far as reliable running is concerned with me.

    All of my N-scale friends who have various brands and types of track also are not having any problems with their Kobo and DC FEF's. There were five excursion trains running at a local trainshow on a modular layout in January at the Thanksgiving Point Train Show in Lehi Utah with zero problems in both DC and DCC. They're also not having problems with any of the new plastic steam either.

    All of my engines have DCC and all of my steam engines will eventually have sound...about half of them do at this time, and DCC REALLY makes a huge difference for me as far as realism, smooth operation and reliability are concerned. I have absolutely zero doubts as to the viability of DCC or N-scale whatsoever and I will never (NEVER) seriously consider changing over to another scale, although I have bits and pieces of larger scale engines and rolling stock that occupy spots on shelves as strictly display models.

    The problem with the Kobo installation of a decoder in the Kato FEF3 is well documented with several reliable solutions available. Just like any DCC installation in any engine I've done so far, I always have to tweak the decoder's CV's to get it where I like it with both its sound and operation.

    Also, I have very tight NMRA-toleranced hand-laid turnouts exclusively on my layout and it is the rare engine that doesn't need to have its wheelsets properly gauged to go through my turnouts smoothly as my turnouts require anything that runs on the tracks to be perfectly gauged. My Kato FEF's needed absolutely no tweaking to run smoothly and perfectly through my turnouts, which is a rare enough occurrence for me that I went ahead and checked the gauge with my NMRA clearance gage. They were PERFECTLY in gauge...which is a tribute to both the engineering and thoughtful design of these excellent engines.

    Mine are getting TSU-750 Heavy Steam sound decoders with airtight speaker enclosures in the tenders as soon as I'm finished superdetailing and renumbering their exteriors for 1950's authenticity.

    Realistically, if anybody is having major problems with N-scale steam engines that have been manufactured since the late 90's, the problem is most likely with your trackwork, with the occasional lemon happening.

    Cheerio!
    Bob Gilmore
     

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