Keep in mind that (depending on layout height) a hill or small mountain makes a very efective view block without having a obvious devider that sticks up out of nowhere.
Less is more Chris, I liked the simplicity and cleanliness of your original level 63 drawing. This looks like spagetti to me. I do like the additional double ended sidings in the back, but think you are sacraficing the ability to have your elevated back track and trestle you had done so effecively in #1. I think you were closer to right the first time. Think chop saw and screwgun, not point and click. . . :teeth: Joe Daddy
Hutch, I've carefully followed all of your progress on your former Northern Pacific Cascade Line and thought your work was exceptional. Being a modeler who has taken on more than is sometimes reasonable with layout projects in the past I was able to relate to your decisions to start over. I've read over everyone's comments and agree with much of the advice you have received. With a little time on my hands I thought I'd finally drop in on the conversation to add a little of my experience to the conversation. I hope that you don't mind but I've taken the liberty to add a few of my thoughts to your track plan. I don't know if you ever have a desire to run steam even as an excursion consist but placing the Y into the track plan from the original sketch would allow you to turn such a train around. The Y could also serve as a way to turn around locomotives that pulled straight into the staging yard by utilizing the track closest to the front as a inbound track. This would prevent having to back the entire train out to run through the reversing loop. In addition this could add interesting photo opportunities if you have an interest in model photography by adding another junction. Another observation would be to adjust the staging tracks along the back wall to allow trains held there to not only utilize the main but to come out onto the layout through the reversing loop. Thus creating a junction on the layout where a main and branch seem to meet or two diverging mains. Possibly shifing some of the industrial spurs around will help to aleviate the spaghetti bowl feeling while giving switching opportunities. Since you like to run long trains you could set one free on the main while you work locals around it in the various scenes. Don't forget about servicing those locos. Some type of locomotive servicing area into the main yard plan would provide visual interest. Even if it is just a fueling and sanding pad with a ready track thus creating operational opportunity to switch out power and service locals. A small siding could be added in the closet area to provide additional staging opportunities. One of the things I enjoy most is trackplanning and development so with that said I created a semi-sceniced plan to demonstrate how scenery could be utilized for veiw blocks. A highway overpass would help to break the two scenes (staging yard/industrial area and opposite side) on the left of the plan. Trees along a river would provide a scenic break for the right side lower pennisula where trains turn back on themselves. A very shallow auto plant and large elevator would provide a scenic divide hiding the rear staging tracks. This is just my interpretation of the track plan and opportunities for scenic breaks and details. From following your scenery work on the Northern Pacific Cascade Line I'm sure you have your own quality scenery ideas. Just wanted to add a little more creative fuel to this fire. Oh the little black boxes all over are possible model photography locations - I usually take that into consideration when designing scenery. Good luck Hutch!
Arrow, Your diagram is amazing. It turns my spaghetti trackwork into a trackplan. Wow. I love all of your ideas and I have incorporated them into this drawing below. I am really starting to like this plan. Thank you for all of your time and effort. It is greatly appreciated.
I think you are well on your way to a very good track plan that is achievable and will allow you to see the rewards of your effort. My first several attempts at layouts were false starts due to grand thoughts of a multilevel layout. A well designed single level layout in my mind is the best way to go and will provide plenty of operating interest. I look forward to your progress on the new one.
I see that I still need to work on the siding near the automotive plant. I missed that change.... Thanks again
Hutch and Arrow: I've been thinking about what operations will look like on the layout as we have set up the staging tracks most recently, and I have a concern... For all the track we have, you'll only have a VERY short run before disappearing into staging. To the North (left), you will pass the golf course and industrial area on the bubble, then disappear under the overpass. To the South (right), you'll pass the scrap yard and then proceed along the wall to where the highway overpass is above the reversing loop turnout, then disappear behind the automotive plant. From the staging on the left side of the layout (which I'll call West, for clarification), you disappear while pulling out of the yard, reappear after the auto plant until ending the run in the big yard, perhaps the longest run of the 3 options. To have trains run through as much of the scenic-ed portions of the layout as possible, what about shifting the grain elevator to the top of the layout and putting two staging tracks immediately behind it plus a track called, for want of a better name, the Hidden Mainline, which is closest to the wall. Trains running North (left) from Big Yard go past the golf course and industrial areas as before, disappear to the Hidden Mainline, reappear in about the middle of the right hand wall to follow along the wall on a track that is mostly visible but is behind the automotive plant. This track becomes fully visible as it moves toward the doorway along the bottom wall through an area called Northtown with a siding or two for roadswitching, if you want. It then moves past the scrap yard and takes a branch off the main into the North and South Staging tracks behind the grain elevator having traveled through most of the scenery. Southbound traffic leaves Big Yard past the scrap yard, goes through Northtown, is partially visible behind the auto plant, then disappears onto the Hidden Mainline, reappears on the bottom of the bubble near West Yard, does some switching near the golf course, which we'll call the Southtown Links, and enters the closet where it takes a turnout to the North/South Staging tracks behind the grain elevator. Again, the train runs through all the scenic-ed areas (and the majority of time it is moving in the same direction (north is left and south is right) instead of constantly going back and forth. Trains leaving West Yard go onto the Hidden Mainline immediately, and, upon reappearing in the middle of the right wall, take a right turnout to a track that passes in front of the auto plant, and they may need to do some switching for the auto plant and other industries serving the Easton Auto Plant. They also drop cars on an interchange track to be picked up by a train leaving the North/South staging tracks southbound over the entire layout to get to Big Yard. The eastbound track then bends toward the door and the bottom wall and CROSSES the mainline that heads south from Big Yard at grade. It continues looping around to pass through Northtown (and could be visible or hidden depending on what you prefer), but eventually moves to a hidden track that is the East Staging Track in the lower right hand corner of the layout. In order to provide a reversing loop for trains, the East Staging Track continues around the corner and joins with the other track that was mostly visible as it came up through Northtown. Together they form the Hidden Mainline. Immediately after they join (and become hidden), the Hidden Mainline will be running parallel to the North/South Staging Yard lead. At the point where the tracks are parallel, there should be a left hand crossover to permit the trains from the North/South Staging Yard to use the reversing loop by taking the track through Easton in front of the auto plant, crossing the southbound main from Big Yard, looping through the East Staging Track, and completing the reversing loop back near the crossover on the Hidden Mainline. Comments/reactions??? Dave H.
Dave, I agree. For all the track, and there is alot of it..., the visual portion of long trains will be limited. Do you think I should start eliminating some things? I does look like a large amount of track, but I like it all. Where would you suggest we change?
Hutch & Dave, Dave, I agree with your remarks. I attempted to provide a revised representation from your comments. Although I don't know that I understood your final point clearly but maybe Hutch got it. Hutch, here is another representation and hopefully it helps to visually represent most of what Dave was addressing.
I like the gap in the trees at the bottom so you can look lengthwise down the mainline. Model shots are more often close to side-on, producing shallow scenes. Shooting lengthwise allows deep, realistic views.
Physical Question/Concern Will the walls of the Closet support such deep cuts width wise. I'm most concerned with those right next to the door itself. I'm not concerned from a major structual perspective but there will be 2x4's ight at the door and next to the wall you might not want to cut.
Arrow, This looks great. I like these changes even more than the first. I think you are spot on what Dave was trying to say. I am going to integrate these into the plan.
Arrow, I have your changes implemeted on the main drawing... This is looking good. It is getting tight to the right of the big yard...
Gentlemen: Sorry about not replying sooner...I spent all day drawing a plan of what I was thinking (which is a little different than Arrow's beautiful rendering), but I couldn't get my scan of the plan uploaded to My Photos. Man! I have GOT to get something like XTrakCad so I can reply in a visual fashion on layout construction threads!! I'll try some other options... Dave H.
Finally!!! This is what I drew up earlier today (actually,… yesterday). Obviously, it is not to scale, but I think the tracks from my plan can fit in the footprint you’ve been using with just a little adjustment to my spacing. Some points: 1. I set up the layout with the idea that the Big Yard was on a North-South main and the West Yard on an East-West main. They cross between Easton and Northtown (by the doorway) and have an interchange in Easton in front of the auto plant. They could be separate RRs or different lines of the same RR. 2. Staging was set up to maximize the time trains to and from Big Yard or West Yard remained on the scenic-ed portion of the layout rather than in hidden trackage and so that trains traveled through as much of the scenery as possible on their run without being seen going back and forth through the same scene. 3. I deliberately tried to have eastbound and southbound trains travel from left to right most of the time they were visible and from the right to left for westbound and northbound trains. This is to give the sense that trains are going to another location that is distant from the point of origin, even though the true destination may be only inches from the origin. And it helps avoid the problem of back and forth passage through the same scene. 4. The N-S main, in combination with the Hidden Mainline, forms a loop. By taking the crossover along the right hand wall from N-S Staging to the Hidden Mainline and then through Northtown and back to N-S Staging, N-S trains can reverse their direction of travel. The E-W Main, in combination with the Hidden Mainline, forms a point to point configuration if you stop at East Staging Track, or a point to loop configuration, if you continue on back to the Hidden Mainline. 5. I liked putting the loco turning Y at West Yard/Weston, but, to give a sense of distance between towns and mainlines, I eliminated the connections with the N-S Main in the West Yard/Weston area by using crossings instead of turnouts. N-S trains can’t switch anything in Weston. 6. When trying to develop the longest continuous run possible before arriving back at the starting point, I realized that by adding the dashed lines from East Staging Track, along the Hidden Mainline to the E-W Main in the closet, and by adding the shorter dashed track from the West Yard loco turning Y around the bubble to where the N-S Main enters the closet, I could achieve a grand tour from Big Yard around the entire layout (twice!) without going over the same piece of track. (Insert “Pleased with myself” icon here.) Here’s how: Loop 1--Proceed south out of Big Yard, past the scrap yard, cross over the E-W Main, go through Northtown, take the Hidden Mainline (solid line) to the closet and then the N-S Main through Weston and around the bubble to the siding that leads to the N-S Staging, thus completing the first loop. This is the path of all southbound trains out of Big Yard. Loop 2 begins as the Grand Tour Train moves out of N-S staging and takes the interchange track to cross over to the E-W Main. Following the E-W Main through Easton, the Grand Tour Train crosses the N-S Main and bends around to the East Staging Track, then connects with the Hidden Mainline (dashed line, this time) and travels to the closet where it connects with the E-W Main, turns onto the loco turning Y but stays on the short dashed line around the bubble (instead of going to Weston), and ties in to the N-S Main by the Southtown Links golf course, and then enters Big Yard on the N-S Main or on the Big Yard lead, thus concluding the 2nd loop and the Grand Tour. 7. As you observed earlier, things are getting crowded at Big Yard: 4 tracks behind the grain elevator and the view block along the upper right side wall, plus an elevator siding, plus at least 5 tracks in the Yard, plus the N-S Main through Big Yard. Despite this, I think this is all still workable. The grain elevator and the upper right corner view block will need to be cleverly designed to allow very easy removal for hidden track cleaning and maintenance, but this should not be difficult. Take a look at these pics of a double mainline hidden by an easily removed view block…the V.B. could just as easily hide 4 tracks as 2, or be made of building fronts instead of trees. With View Block: Without View Block: 8. The spaghetti bowl factor might be mitigated somewhat by eliminating some of the industry sidings or a track or two at Big Yard, but I would vote for keeping the industries and siding on this layout for operations flexibility. If you want to photograph your trains moving through stark countryside (no industries or sidings, few buildings), indulge your passion for layout construction and build a module that rates a “0” on the Spaghetti Bowl Factor. (Yeah...I think it IS possible to "have it all", at least sometimes, or in some ways.) It’s late, and this is WAY too long. G’Nite. Dave H.
I did have another thought about the treatment of the wye on the left, see what you think of this...(obviously a 'basic' drawing with no detail, spurs or sidings on there) This would allow the wye to move further up and that might allow you to access more of the yard tracks. Ref a loco terminal, these were quite often located inside the 'dead space' in the middle of a wye, it wouldn't be a big terminal but it would give you plenty of space to service the switcher and any locos being used for local traffic from that yard. The second version includes a reverse loop option that would let you 'out & back' from that yard if you wanted.
Hutch & Dave, I attempted to replicate what Dave sketched out which by no means wasn't effective I just like to tinker around with track plans to see what they may look like with scenery. I think it is pretty close if I understood the sketch correctly with the exception of one less staging track behind the grain elevator view block. There are a few other things omitted because it looked like there may not be space (i.e. small engine facility at West Yard). Although Martyn has a good idea worth considering by sticking a small facility inside the Y under the possible overpass. The only real difference on my rendering is a flyover connection added to allow the E/W main to enter or leave the Big Yard at what Dave refers to as Easton near the auto plant. Hutch, I know that you were looking for a plan to allow the use of some bridges and I think that Dave's sketch provides an interesting opportunity that I rendered near the door to the room. Possibly a upper track (N/S main) passing over the lower track (E/W main) and both crossing a river but again this is just creative fuel for you. There are still places where you could decide to just have a scene to run through or add some more industries to work. Well again I hope this helps with the creative process and I hope I stayed close to your concept Dave. Well Hutch at least there is no shortage of possibilities, good luck narrowing in on your favorite ideas.
Martyn: Nice variation. I think it would be possible to flip-flop the areas I had designated Weston and Southtown without too much hassle. Your variation does a better job than mine of preserving the west is left and east is right concept. Operators would stand in 2 different places to work West Yard or to work Weston; but, since it is unlikely both jobs would be done simultaneously, there wouldn't be much walking back and forth between the two areas. Regarding the turning Y: I'm assuming both arms of the loco turning Y would tie into the East-West Main. The upper arm of the Y and the stem of the Y would also serve as one side of the reversing loop. The lower arm of the turning Y would also connect with the E-W Main. It would cross the lower branch of the E-W reversing loop and the North-South Main to join the upper branch in Weston. Depending on space, All Weston sidings could come off of the stem of the Y or from the upper branch, but not from the lower branch (because that would necessitate inefficient [and ultimately, annoying] switchback moves. Regarding the East-West Line reversing loop: At the base of the stem of the turning Y, the E-W reversing loop will need to cross the North-South Main on the upper side of the bubble so there is no interference with developing some industrial sidings in Southtown's new location on the lower side of the bubble. Industries in Weston should all be on facing point turnouts so the switcher that pulls them from the West Yard can drill them all straight into the sidings without needing to do lots of run-arounds (and so Hutch avoids the added expense of more turnouts and a nasty case of "spaghetti bowl-itis"). Hutch, in my most recent interpretation, I had conceived of any Southtown industries as being served by the North-South trains just before the trains went into staging. This idea will still hold true if you flip-flop Weston and Southtown as Martyn suggests. I had drawn a short run-around just in front of the closet, but that area was probably too crowded for that to work. And with the flip-flop putting Southtown on the lower side of the bubble with the E-W reversing loop on the outside, adding all the straight pieces of crossings and turnouts into the curved trackage around the edge of the bubble may increase the overall radius of the bubble an inch or 3 (?? isn't there a minimum track radius of 19"??)...so I think all the Southtown sidings should be trailing points to the right/south with only one switch connecting all the sidings to the N-S Main (no run-arounds needed). Dave H.
Hutch: I have been looking at all our track planning from within my own perceptions and assumptions about what the plan should be, and I may be missing something important about what YOU want for your layout. 1. Is the Grand Tour idea something you support--put a train on the track and let it orbit on both mainlines, maybe even while you work in the Big Yard? I put the dashed lines tracks in to accomplish the Grand Tour, but we shouldn't add those tracks if the Grand Tour isn't on your list of Givens and Druthers. [For those of you who don't speak the American version of English...a list of Givens and Druthers is a list of the things your layout MUST have (Givens), and the list of things you'd prefer to have but might be able to do without (the list of items you "would rather have" that gets slurred into " 'd rather" have, and ultimately to "Druther".)] 2. Do you want to have two trains running, each of them on their own loop? (With the crossovers of the plan as I drew it, this might not be a safe. We should reconfigure the track if you want two safely orbiting trains.) 3. We've been careful to include reversing loops, but what will be their actual purpose? Will you be using them to turn entire trains between operating sessions, so the same consist of cars can return to its starting point? On the North-South Line, notice that you could achieve the same outcome (cars back at their point of origin at Big Yard, just not in their reverse order) simply by continuing the consist around the loop back to the original yard--there is no need to turn the trains on a reversing loop: Session 1 Big yard south to Southtown and then N-S Staging; Session 2, the same consist goes south out of N-S Staging through Northtown, and on to Big Yard. On the other hand, the reversing loop for the East Staging Track makes better sense...You DO need to turn the loco to pull cars back to their point of origin in West Yard. With the turning Y at West, an E-W Line reversing loop may not be necessary at that end of the layout (unless you want to use the reversing loop tracks to make the Grand Tour work). 4. What is your preference regarding running long strings of cars between staging and yard versus your preference for switching industries and interchanges? The ratio of action in the yards compared to action in industries or interchanges should reflect that preference, and you may want to add or delete some industries. 5. You have no passing sidings, so the assumption would be that you will only have one train on a mainline at a time (a reasonable assumption with this track plan). If you prefer operations with the Grand Tour style of track plan design (long mainline between origin and destination), then it is more likely you will have the chance meeting of two trains, so you should add provisions for meets or passes that might occur during such an operating session. Dave H.
