My First Time, Be Gentle

LKOrailroad Jul 11, 2010

  1. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    You are very perceptive. The positioning you suggest (single isle ver) is spot on to what I have in mind. I have a track plan in progress that hopefully will get posted to the blog this weekend. It will illustrate what you have described.
    The staging is planned to be under the layout. Rather than try to explain with words let's wait until I get the plan posted.
    Very much appreciate your input.
    -a
     
  2. Flashwave

    Flashwave TrainBoard Member

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    Then I shall refrain from the RTS mock-up I started (with no diea what a rubber industry or the Grain Mill looked like) with the posted picture as a backdrop.
     
  3. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Lapeer Grain

    No, please continue. I am anxious for suggestions.

    For rubber factory simply think any generic big factory complex with various loading/unloading docks, liquid transfers, etc. Essentially spurs a plenty from a branch line.

    Lapeer Grain is a farmers co-op grain silo collection suited for covered hoppers loading/unloading. A spur off of a subdivision mainline.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  4. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    another view lapeer grain

    as seen from the amtrak station. this image captures just about all of the area i want to model. i don't want the entire lapeer area. the loco has just crossed the saginaw st. crossing noted on the blog. saginaw st goes through the space between the two silos.
    lg1.jpg
     
  5. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Message for Flashwave

    I finally got the revised track plan start posted on the LK&O blog as I promised you earlier. It is taking much longer than I thought but at least progress is being made. I am still extremely interested to hear your opinions and suggestions.

    BTW did I see you just join MRH? If it is the same flashwave then welcome aboard.
     
  6. Flashwave

    Flashwave TrainBoard Member

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    *Whoops, I didn't see this thread update. My bad...

    Yes, yes I did. There's a reason I use "Flashwave" it's very distinctive. Hee hee.

    Looking at the new plan, I am rather worried about accessibility in that underground from the helix along the wall. Derailmnents will be fine in the straightaway, but as soon as they hit the curve, you're gonna need to make sure you can get to them. Bulletproof your track, and make sure you can sit in that helix. The club I'm in has a 180* turnback loop, actually, there's several 180* turns, and they are a PAIN to rerail in because of accessibility, they're under the layout. And one of them is at the base of a hill, so we get things that derail, uncouple toward the crest of the hill because the frint car is leveling faster than the derailed one, and the rest of the train comes racing down the hill half off, then jump for the ground. I found one that managed to come completely off and wedge itself between the track-lumber and the Lbracket going to the wall.

    EDIT: the line going out of Kitmiller and under the High Bridge river, how long is that curve? In order to get under that river, I'm betting on a three percent grade, but you've got a lateral distance of 7ft-8ft, and the curve is likely longer than that, to do it on. For clearence, I'm figuring a four inch drop. Otherwise, I'd work your grade down a bit, cross the water on a low bridge (teh back wall line, not the high bridge. LEAVE THAT THERE their awesome), then plunge into the side of land that Lapeer is on and finish it out. I;ll bet that High Bridge doesn't have a secondar linew under it though, and bridge>tunnel is more an SP/UP thing than an Ohio feature, but it's not unheard of.

    Also, I like that you are taking it in stages.
     
  7. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Helix access clarification

    this is rude and crude but hopefully will better explain access to the helix. I also updated the track plan on the blog to better show the extent of the benchwork.
    side view.jpg
     
  8. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Access to hidden track

    Another quick rude drawing. I haven't spent a lot of time making the shapes on my track plan exactly right since it is just an electronic think pad at the moment. The hidden track behind Addition Alley (road in Kitzmiller) is necessary because Addition Alley prototype is 1/2 mile from the river and halfway up the side of a mountain. I have some very serious selective compression going on just to get it on the layout. There are no tracks that high up the mountain behind Addition Alley so I did my best to keep the line from entering the scene. Access from underneath to the hidden track along the wall is shown in this crude drawing. The 2% slope continues from the helix until just before High Bridge. Haven't decided if tunnel or deep cut will be used where goes through the hill before the bridge.

    addition alley side view.jpg

    You are spot on that track work needs to be bulletproof. There won't be a lick of scenery, ballast, foam, etc. on the benchwork until 100% of the track work is operating sweet.
     
  9. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Duh Me

    I get what you are saying now. Bear with me, I'm not the brightest bulb on the string. I applied your suggestion and updated the track plan again on the blog.

    Great suggestion! Thanks.
     
  10. Flashwave

    Flashwave TrainBoard Member

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    Well, You nailed two of them with the drawing, I was worried about the space between Add Alley and the hidden track, and you should be able to reach in there to re-rail should anything happen, and you noted the hylix accesibility, and I'll check the blog...

    Yep, I think think that lowbrisge will help your grade there immensly, and will be fun to photshoot I think, though it may not match prototype for whatever that river is supposed to be. Just thinking scenic wise, is that a heavy boattraffic river, one the lowbridge will need to lift or swing for? (hypothetically, I mean, there's a wall there that won't allow it to swing, and you can fake the lift bridge if need be)

    Did you do something to the backside of the hylix? I could swear that was different earlier. I think it will help you in the long run to have the backside open like that, but I think coming up from the bottom would've worked as well.
     
  11. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Flashwave answers

    Hidden track along wall:
    The tangent track ends at center of bend in the river. Only the tangent track will be subject to the "reach up under the mountain" access. The curve is open to the back where there is a 24" sides 33" hypotenuse triangular opening in the corner. I tested the triangle size and I fit through it fine. This arrangement means there is only tangent track in the difficult to reach area.

    Unspecified ravine/river/whatever:
    I should have a legend on the drawing but I don't. Robin egg blue color represents 0" elevation from benchwork. The aqua represents water. I don't know exactly what the high/low bridge area is just yet. It fulfills a Druther of dramatic high bridge over gorge scene. Also, I selected the 3 locales to model prototypically however I specifically left the transitional areas wide open to creativity. Rather than a model of somewhere, they are meant to merge the two adjacent landscapes. Kitzmiller is mountain, Lapeer is rolling midwest, Brittain is inner city.

    Helix change:
    Yes, I removed the yellow hidden benchwork symbol. It confused more than helped. Access to the helix is still by ducking under the benchwork but the entire huge triangular corner is wide open. The mountains (dark orange) form a "wall" behind the tipple.
     
  12. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Train Room

    Ahh, I see where the confusion lay. The gray area on the track plan drawing is a separate room. The triangle sides behind the helix are the train room walls. Only the white grid area and the green reserved walkway area are inside the train room.
     
  13. Flashwave

    Flashwave TrainBoard Member

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    Saw the eccentric billionaire updated the blog...

    Hey look! Staging! I'm curious to see what your Brittain yard looks like, since the penninsula is funny shaped.
     
  14. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    In a State of Flux

    The dark blue represents benchwork of unknown shape. It is there only to give me a visual of the rough area I have to work with. As Brittain develops the benchwork will become more defined. Form follows function they say!

    You and about a dozen others have all said "Where's the staging?" Even if formal operations aren't in the plans staging will be nice to put on a realistic show to casual observers as trains come and go from the layout. CTC is planned so hopefully the computer will do the work of keeping the entrances and exits coordinated. Plus it gave me a realistic interchange which was needed.

    I am not satisfied with Lapeer switching. Too much action at the rear of the bench. The mainline has to be out front but somehow I am going to bring the industries forward a bit. I don't want to be totally dependent on auto uncoupling and reaching that far back with a stick isn't workable.

    Glad to see you are still following!
     
  15. Flashwave

    Flashwave TrainBoard Member

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    Just popped in, I REALLY like the shape of Brittain Yard. I don't however, like your blog software as I've twice tried to comment over there and mistook me typing as a command to go back to another previous page...

    Anywhat, I did notice that your yard does not have a lead track. This is not needed for one man ops, but if you want to go a more functionally accurate yard, you'd want one. A lead track needs to access all tracks in the yard, without hindering the mainline, or doing so minimally on smaller railroads. You could install a doubleslip at the left end of the yard, one track up from the mainline, just short of the helix, and run it alongside the main, or do it at the corssovers on the other side. I think the first one is the easier route. Right now, I'm not seeing any easier way to do Brittain Yard than what you have. It's not Brittain, but it fits the area perfectly. I saw you commnted on the benchwork being too wide, what parts are you unable to reach? The back throat of the yard?

    The helix, you might try hiding with structres so you don';t get the same "helix in a mountain. My views of Brittain Yard shw the area surrounded by a decent factory base, so you could do a few neat shots of the train circling inside, periodically out between and then back between, some large factory complexes. Be cool scenery.
     
  16. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Great comments about the yard. I'll integrate your suggestions and re-post.
    The blog is a standard WordPress blog thesis. This is the first I have heard of comment problems. I'll check it out however I wouldn't have a clue how to change it if it doesn't work.
     
  17. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    blog test

    flashwave,

    Posting a copy of your comment using Firefox worked. Also posted a comment using IE8 which worked also. Don't know how to test blog any further.

    As you have noted I am struggling to formulate a yard plan that both fits the available space and looks like Brittain. I'll work further on it tonight.

    I also struggled with the second helix. Your comment of helix in a mountain is spot on. I don't want a helix in a mountain but can't visualize how to hide it with structures.

    Up to this point I have really resisted the urge to fire up 3DS Max and make a 3D version just because of the time it takes. I'm 18 months into self-teaching myself 3DS Max and am still not the least bit proficient with it but it may be needed for the helix #2 issue.

    Again, thank you for your great suggestions.
     
  18. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Brittain Yard Redesign

    The latest Brittain Yard plan has been posted LKOrailroad for your consideration.
     
  19. Flashwave

    Flashwave TrainBoard Member

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    Alroghty then. Some visual edits. My apologies on not being able to get all of Brittain Yard, but I tried to get some more of the flavor.
    • I redid (badly) the engine facility. See if you can make it better, but I think you have room to do what I approximated.
    • I added in the gravel pit. This will be a minor reference, as you will need to be able to reach back at the engien facility. LIkewise, it cannot go at the other end by the Goodyear plant, as you cannot reach the yard throat. (I tried)
    • We're still missing the yard's lead track, unless I'm not clear on what's the mainline. I did not get that added in yet though, and again, since it's you, you, and occasionally you, not a big deal.
    <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v242/TitanXP/?action=view&current=LKORailroad.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/TitanXP/LKORailroad.png" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>

    (I'm having issues with Photobucket, use the top link)


    Goodyear:
    • Helix inside the building: Coming out of Brittain Yard, the railroad curves between two buildings. (I bumped out your benchwork another 6 inches or so to put it in, don;t have to be much) Where the operator is stadindg, he sees a wll going two or three stories up. However, from the railroad side of it, the solid rail line paralells te lower two stories, and the top story goes over the track. Somewhere under that third stoy, the railroad "enters" the building. This would be unseen however from most common angles. Then it essentially circles around inside the bechwork the same way.
    • Anyone standing in Brittain Yard sees a ~three story factory complex.
    • Anyone in the Goodyear railyard sees a 1 story, maybe two.
    • The only portion of the railroad not in Goodyear, is the section underneath the railroad sidings serving the complex. That siding will likely need to be upgrade to give you enough clearence for the helix underneath. You won't need a lot, but a little would help
    • I'm a tad bit worried about you being able to reach into the Goodyear complex for derailments on the Goodyear sidings. Make sure the buildings there are removable. (but you've probably already thought of that)
    Lepeer:

    • I'm afraid the scenery gap bewtween Lepeer and Brittain is getting too small, even on different levels. How does it look in your head?
    • The track there is getting rather complicated, yes no?
    • But I like your industrial area. Good on you with that.
    Clear as mud yet?
     
  20. LKOrailroad

    LKOrailroad TrainBoard Member

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    Flashwave, this is cool. Thank you for helping. I'll try to address each of your points:

    [FONT=&quot]I redid (badly) the engine facility. See if you can make it better, but I think you have room to do what I approximated.[/FONT]
    Examine engine facility shape, size, position in this image.

    [FONT=&quot]I added in the gravel pit. This will be a minor reference, as you will need to be able to reach back at the engien facility.[/FONT]
    Sand pit is on opposite end of prototype yard from engine house. I had thoughts of making the Firestone complex smaller then sand pit next to it in the track radius.

    [FONT=&quot]We're still missing the yard's lead track, unless I'm not clear on what's the mainline. I did not get that added in yet though, and again, since it's you, you, and occasionally you, not a big deal.[/FONT]
    I'll label the tracks and place on the blog track plan page. See if how I have them labeled makes sense. The AC&Y main prototype went around the yard instead of through if that helps some.

    [FONT=&quot]Helix inside the building: [/FONT]
    I understand. Liking it. Will make one heck of an industrial complex! Was worried that would be way too much structures. Going to mock-up with cardboard boxes.

    [FONT=&quot]I'm a tad bit worried about you being able to reach into the Goodyear complex for derailments on the Goodyear sidings.
    Agreed. Time for a little slick engineering feat to make sure all can be accessed.
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]I'm afraid the scenery gap bewtween Lepeer and Brittain is getting too small, even on different levels. How does it look in your head?[/FONT]
    Share concern. Heavily wooded in area of interchange, no structures of consequence, disguised terrain grade transition between Brittain and Lapeer level. Lapeer will be considerably higher elevation than Brittain. Cut was made to permit addition of ABB interchange. Labeled yard track diagram will help better show.

    [FONT=&quot]The track there is getting rather complicated, yes no?
    Yes, but for operations facilitation. Represents both interchanges on track schematic. [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]

    Clear as mud yet?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Quite the opposite. You convey your thoughts well.

    [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Give me 24 hours to get the labeled yard diagram posted.
    [/FONT]
     

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