The NYC web page I promised is now up. Take a look: NYC If anyone has further requests, and I have them in my collection, it will be easy to add to that page. Please let other NYC fans know! Boxcab E50
Ken, that's quite a collection, covering the Mohawk and Hudson Divisions, and lots for LEW and Roger on the Indiana roads. Where did you get all the Chatam orders? Quite a few are from the very last days of existence on the Central, and some from 1968 might actually be PC, using the old existing NYC paper. Thanks for putting them together. :tb-biggrin:
Jim- Hopefully I did not put up anything dated after the PC disaster began. I have been collecting for well into four decades. Looking, looking, looking, always looking. Swap meets, sales lists, writing letters and emails, phone calls, conversations with many, many older rails, you name it. Dig, dig, dig. I can add to that page, easily. Those were just the few you guys noted as being of interest. I'll send you a PM in a few minutes! Boxcab E50
Argh. I was worried for a few minutes! All are dated pre-PC. That came about on February 1, 1968. Using up old stores of paperwork was very common, so for several years into PC, you find NYC and PRR commonly. Post Conrail, was it ever a big mess! Makes filing a bit of work to be certain of what you actually have at hand. Boxcab E50
Good orders on the michigan branch Box.If people would want me too I could write something explaining their meaning. Some of this will cover 251 terr. on the B-line before TCS. LEW
LEW, I think it would be very interesting to all of us to see your explanation of these orders. Your technical knowledge is amazing and historic. Some of the folks on here are too young to know about the written orders and their meaning. :tb-biggrin:
By all means, if you'd care to do so, please write. If there are any other locations I might have, which would add value to this, let me know and I will look. I have about 300 NYCRR offices collected. Plus B&A, P&E, a few Big Four and several small subsidiaries, too! Boxcab E50
Ken, you've done a great job. Looking forward to seeing the remaining NYCS orders. I'd like to add that Ken's Chatham, Interlocking 65, and NW orders were issued to control moves on the Harlem Division. The Harlem didn't have a tower at their northern terminal in Chatham, NY after 1938, so B&A Signal Station (Interlocking) 65 issued the orders for the Harlem's northern territory between Chatham (GCT +126.14) and Brewster, NY (GCT +51.90). Also North White Plains, NY (NW) (GCT +23.67) was where the Harlem changed engines, electric/steam, similar to Croton Harmon on the Hudson Division.
A friend of mine, James Reeves, who now resides in Florida, came into possession of a sizeable amount of railroad paper from a fellow club member, Glenn Miner, who passed away about a year ago. Glenn started his career with the Central back in the days of steam. Over his career, he amassed not only the "usual" paperwork particular to the Central, but also a variety of other things as well, such as operator's manuals for certain EMD diesels, as well as paperwork from other roads, such as the D&H. I've previously posted to the Yahoo! groups to which I belong, announcements about this, as my friend wants to get rid of it. As of this writing, I do not know how successful he was, but at last report, it was contained in five boxes. However, it is, AFAIK, still uncatalogued, so what he has exactly is a big question mark. Anyone interested in this may contact Jim directly at trainsdisneyfan@yahoo.com. Dieter Zakas Paperwork, NJ
I will start out with an explanation of a train order.First we have two types of train orders . They are 19, 31 and you will notice numbers in the upper left and right corners of the order. Next comes the blank for the order number,date, to whom the order is sent to and the station location where the order is copied. Below that comes the space for the body of the order and below the body of the order are the initials of the superintendent. Below the signature in print it says, Conductor and Engineer must each have a copy. The last line, order made Complete,the time and the operator's last name.The 19 order is the every day work horse. It covers almost every move or instance where an order might be used. A 31 order is used where a trains' superiority is restricted at that point.I will show this on 1 or 2 orders in this group.All orders must have a form A clearance card with it.This card will have a blank for the date,C&E of the train and location. Number of orders and number of each order,time form A was made out and operator's name. There are instructions explaining the using of the form A. We will start out with the Connersville,In. order # 204. This is about as basic as you can get. Notice the form A has all of the blanks filled in, but has added at the end of the # of orders,and one message.When the engineer receives the orders he looks at the form A and sees he has 1 order and 1 mess. He would look at the message first and then the #of the order. While he is doing this he also checks the dates,times, see if it is signed and if they are for his train.The message is clear but it does make it obvious that on trains you must know where you are,where is #4 track at Brookville? The order is correct against the form A ,so we are ready to go. Next time I will show how the adding of a few words to the order can change things. LEW
For those who might have not seen it, there is a history page on my site, which would offer some insight into how these papers came about. As their use varied widely across North America and the world for that matter, I cannot put together anything comprehensive. Such an endeavor would be a huge volume, and I wanted just an overview comprised of one long page. http://www.train-orders.com/HistoryX.html Boxcab E50
First, Box very good history on train orders. As I said last time order # 204 can be changed and have a new meaning. The dispatcher could have added,with right over all trains, this would give extra 8076 protection the entire trip in case the dispatcher wanted to run another train from Connersville or Valley Jct. as an opposing move .This was non block ter. at this time. They could have run a train behind the extra 8076 out of Valley Jct. if the following train had seen extra 8076 arrive at Valley Jct. or if an operator was on duty at Valley Jct. I had an order like this but with a little something added. The order read like this using the #204 order as a base. 8076 run extra Connersville to Valley Jct. and return to Connersville. Take siding at Valley Jct. and meet extra 3047 south. Now this order is ok but the dispatch must put out another order or add to the first order. To add it would be like this.After, and meet extra 3047 south. Extra 3047 run ahead of 8076 Valley Jct. to Connersville or the same thing on a separate order. Order # 771 is different because of the address.Northward Trains,Michigan Branch, and put out at DX. DX is at the east side of Indianapolis about 40 miles from Anderson. This is an interdivisional train from Avon to Elkhart. Gridley, mentioned in the order, the point at which this train would get this order, is never closer than 2 miles to this train. This would have involved a taxi trip and 1 hr. or better delay. The track will go from rules 251-254 for following moves to 550-562 which is TCS or today CTC. The reason the trains can not clear at the warehouse track is that it is not an electric locked switch. This is all for tonight. LEW
This time we will discuss giving right over other trains ,orders 122 and 9. I will try to set up the situation on order 122. At Anderson west of town there is interlocking Taft. At this location the double track divides the eastbound turning right to the east passing through South Anderson Yard. East of Anderson where the double track comes back together at another interlocking, Gridley. At the time of this order, 1943,this track was manual block . The west bound track made a big bow from Taft to Gridley,a mile north of the manual block track, going through down town Anderson.This was the way all passenger trains traveled and some freights when the south Anderson track was blocked. This track was under rule 231-234, an early form of CTC, and is found in the 1937 rule book. I am not really sure why they marked out the 31 order number and wrote 19 below. East is the superior direction and therefore is a restricting order to eastbounds and the order is put out at Taft west of So. Anderson.The 2279,an H-10 is given right to Taft but has running orders to East wood. Eastwood was the interlocking at the yards on the east side of Indianapolis. The reason he had running orders to Eastwood was you were required to have orders on double track at this time. Looking at the bottom of the order was addressed to 2nd 94 an eastbound.Back to why they marked out the 31 they may be using rule 208a but without a timetable from 1943 I can't say. Now to order #9. This is dated 1965 and will be under the 1956 book of rules.On the 122 order the mains were east bound or west bound . Order #9 mains were eastbound #2 westbound #1. After PC in 1968 they renumbered them PRR style eastbound #1 westbound #2. Well that said Vance was located on the eastside of Muncie ,In. and old Gridley on the eastside of Anderson. The NYC had absolute block against current of traffic passenger or freight. If you wanted to cross the train back over at a hand throwed crossover between the two interlockings they would have added to the order 341 cross over from #2 to#1 at X crossover. Notify operator Gridley when clear of #2. At this time with both orders rule 251 was in effect for folling movements. LEW
What would be causing the track to be blocked? Local switching moves? Other trains passing through the vicinity? Boxcab E50
Other freight trains. There was the main ,siding and 19 yard tracks.If a train was setting or picking up they usually did it from the main.By running them through downtown there was not a build up of trains east or west of town .They would give the van train 11 min. from the time they stopped make the pick up and start leaving town.This was with hand throwed switches.Today that would take 30-45 min. and they call that progress. LEW
We will start out with order # 37. I like this order because of what it does but I feel something is missing .On the address # 74 and operator at Wabash but # 64 is not mentioned.The body says #64 gets this order but not where and that may be why they annulled it.The even # trains are superior by time table direction and these trains are all second class . # 64 is the local and #75 is the through freight to So. Anderson.The first thing the disp. does is reverse superiority by directing # 64 to take siding. He then takes away # 74 superiority by giving first 75 right over # 74 from CX,Goshen, to Wabash.This was done mainly to hold # 74 at Wabash.If things had gone well and 74 could have left Wabash zip, zip, if they could have left Wabash and cleared 1st 75's scheduled time north of Wabash at each station where time was given they would have left, but because the schedule is so tight # 74 will stay at Wabash.After 1st 75 departs Wabash and they would want to move #74 again they would give a meet between # 74 & # 75 at some point beyond Wabash. However at this meet # 74 will be the superior train unless the disp. gives # 75 right over # 74. The type of engines involved were 1584 ,H-5, 2197, 2224 H-10 Order # 35. This is a ,what we called a straight meet ,which means timetable superiority even # trains are superior.# 74 will hold the main at both meets. That being the case I don't understand why the disp. added # 65 take siding.Maybe he felt it made it a safer move. You will also notice the superior train was mentioned first in the order. LEW
Order #163: Remember the track through So. Anderson yard is manual block. The print is not clear so I will print the first part.Engs 2080 and 2947 run as two Extras and have right over Eastward Trains except No.96 Gridley to double track Taft. No. 96 Eng.2944 Take siding and meet Extra 2080 west and Extra 2947 west at South Anderson Yards. This is not only manual block but is also in yard limits. Now the question is why do these trains need orders in yard limits. Althrough yard engines and other moves can be made within yard limits sometime you had to have permission to occupy the main. When the west bounds came to Gridley they had to have running orders which gave them permission to occupy the main within yard limits.It is no different than # 96 clearing at So. Anderson yards he must call the disp. before occupying the main. If the disp gave you an order to run from A to yard limits at B when you arrived at the yard limits at B you would have to have permission to occupy the yard limits at B. You will also notice a meet was set up although both road jobs were in yard limits.This does not relieve the road jobs from observing the yard limit rule per yard engines that may have permission on the main. I have said all of this and give an example. For those that have a copy of the 1st quarter 2007 of the NYCSHS headlight read about the wreck at Wyton, Ill. This was the same deal that we have at So. Anderson.There was no doubt speed was a problem,but did they have running orders,the southbound at least to the yards and the northbound who came from double track to a point beyond the yard limit board on the north end. The operators said they did not block for anything except passenger trains. My question is why would you run opposing trains on single track without any sidings? If they would have used train orders like these between Gridley and Taft, and it is the very same move.This accident would not have happened, but no mention of this type of order is in the story.Well food for thought. The rule for operation did not change when they went to pre printed orders. The company did not want any mention of the likeness. A Track Warrant is nothing but what we called non block .Other forms are the same as manual block,autoblock with train orders and it goes on and on. LEW
