NYC Scullin drivers?

Triplex Dec 13, 2007

  1. Triplex

    Triplex TrainBoard Member

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    Only some L4 Mohawks had Scullins; from photos, it seems the majority had Boxpoks. How many had Scullins?

    Of the Dreyfuss Hudsons, how many retained Scullins when destreamlined?

    Did any other NYC power have Scullins?
     
  2. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    This answer is not based on fact, just my recollection of seeing and reading about them. I don't recall seeing a Mohawk with Scullins. The Hudsons retained whatever drivers they had when de-streamlined. As I recall, half had (originally) Scullins and half had Boxpok. You will find photos of Hudsons with mixed drivers, such as a Boxpok on No. 2 and Scullins on 1 and 3. I will try to find one in my collection of Vollrath photos that illustrates this.
    :tb-confused:
     
  3. Triplex

    Triplex TrainBoard Member

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  4. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    Hmm, guess there was one or two. Most of the L-3 and L-4 models had Boxpok. I just found a picture in Al Staufer's "Steam Power of the New York Central" of 3138 in Scullins. Got any other questions?
    :tb-biggrinn:
     
  5. Mike Kmetz

    Mike Kmetz TrainBoard Member

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    Just glanced through some of my books by Al Stauffer and Arnold Haas and can confirm what has been said.
    The ten Dreyfuss Hudsons for the 20th Century - five had Scullins, five had Boxpok. The two for the Empire State Express also had Scullins.
    J-1e Hudson 5344 was equipped with Scullin disc drivers during its streamlined Commodore Vanderbilt service, but only after it received its later upgrades.
    Yes, the drivers got swapped around in later years, and even mixed and mis-matched.
    Haas notes that "some" of the L-4b Mohawks were equipped with disc drivers; no mention of the L-4a. In any case these were not the same - L-4 Mohawks had 72" drivers - Hudsons had 79" drivers.
    I remember reading that the Scullin disc drivers were a later development resulting in lighter weight drivers that could be dynamically balanced more effectively. This would have been important for premium high speed passenger service. The Mohawks were probably included as they were dual-service and did haul some of the first class passenger trains, too.
    Look at pictures of the K-5b Pacifics that were streamlined for Mercury service. When they were bumped to James Whitcomb Riley service in 1941, it seems even they got disc drivers. The K-5b had 79" drivers, so these were probably the same as the Hudson Scullin disc drivers. There is at least one photo of 4917 on the inaugural day of service wearing disc drivers with what looks like some kind of overlay on them. These drivers were illuminated at night - that must have been an impressive sight!
    What I find interesting is that the epitome of NYC steam passenger power, the Niagara, was never equipped with disc drivers. Wonder why.
     
  6. hunter_alexander

    hunter_alexander TrainBoard Member

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    I think that the Mohawks with the scullen drivers to be the most handsome of the Mohawks. L4a's I believe. The other Mohawks were great looking, but those drivers were gorgeous.

    I would have loved to see the Niagaras with Scullen drivers. Problem for them I think was they were too new and had way to short of a life to require the heavy shopping that I would think the scullens would be put on during. That is just my opinion though. They never got the reworks that the Mohawks and Hudsons got becuase of their short life.
     
  7. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    That sure would have been a sight to behold, a Niagara with Disc drivers. Anyone well versed enough in photoshop to create that? David Leonard sure could.
    :tb-biggrin:
     
  8. Mike Kmetz

    Mike Kmetz TrainBoard Member

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    I found some more information about Scullin disc drivers. This might explain why they were never fitted to the Niagaras.

    "Both the Boxpok and Scullin driver designs imparted additional strength to the driving wheels reducing maintenance, but also permitting two sets of balancing weights to be incorporated; one for balancing the masses on a single plane and the other smaller one for cross-counterbalance."
    "When the [Dreyfuss] J3a's were delivered 1/2 had Scullin and the other 1/2 Boxpok drivers and ran about 185-200 thousand miles between heavy repairs. In practice however, the Scullin disk accounted for 18 of the 22 wheel defects reported in 1938-39. These defects were in the form of cracks radiating from the lightening holes, typically on the main driving wheels and after about 120-200 thousand miles of service."
     
  9. Triplex

    Triplex TrainBoard Member

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    I know. When I first saw a shot of an L4 with Scullins, I realized there might be a steam locomotive in the world more beautiful than my old favorite, the Niagara. The other contender is a destreamlined Hudson with Scullins and centipede tender. As an aside, how many of those existed?
     
  10. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    Triplex, all of the streamlined Hudsons lost their sheet metal eventually, and almost all of them had PT tenders. I could not find a Vollrath photo of mine that showed a mix of drivers, but as Mike pointed out, the Scullins were more subject to problems, and you were likely to see Hudsons with the main driver Boxpok and 1 & 3 Scullins. I'm disappointed that after looking through my collection again, I don't have one of a Hudson destreamlined with Scullins and a PT. :tb-mad:

    Do you own any of Al Staufer's books on NY Central steam power? His "Thoroughbreds" is all about Hudsons and has photos of every configuration of drivers, tenders, feedwater heaters, etc. that they ever had. You might find them at swap meets or on ebay. They got pretty pricey with the last printings, up around $70. :tb-sad:

    George Elwood has photos on his site. Visit http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5453o.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2007
  11. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

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    The problem and solution with cracking of forged and cast disks was well-known within the Mechanical Engineering community during the time that the Central was using Scullen drivers. The problem was that the Central's long-term strategic planning, purchasing, and maintenance budgets had already shifted to deiselization by the time the Scullen cracking problems became wide-spread. By the end of WW-II, the policy from "on-high" was to band-aid and baling-wire the steamers as long as possible until annual budgets were available to replace them with diesels. Sad, but that's business in a capitalistic economy.
     
  12. Triplex

    Triplex TrainBoard Member

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    No, but now I've found these:

    At least these six had the Scullins-and-centipede combination:
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5417g.jpg
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5430ahv.jpg
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-5432s.jpg
    http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/NYC5437.JPG
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5442o.jpg
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5454ao.jpg
    These three had the same, plus an L3/L4-style smokebox front:
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5447s.jpg
    http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/NYC5450.JPG
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5453o.jpg Thanks for this one.

    There are some Hudsons with other interesting combinations:
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5449s.jpg Scullin only on first driver.
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5418as.jpg Scullins on first and last drivers, as you mentioned.
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5442ass.jpg Scullins but original tender.
    And one with Boxbok drivers, but still odd:
    http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5446ajh.jpg Only partly (de)streamlined.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2007
  13. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    Yeah, the Central had almost infinite combinations of drivers, heaters, tenders, etc. Elwood's site is a treasure trove of information. Incidentally, any of the locomotives found with numbers below 5445 were never streamlined. (Exceptions, 5344, 5426 and 5429). The J-3's, starting with 5405, had both kinds of drivers. Another incidental that isn't NYC related, is that the Frisco 1522, a 4-8-2, had a boxpok main driver and spokes on the other three for all of it's restored steam excursions. :tb-biggrin:
     
  14. Triplex

    Triplex TrainBoard Member

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    Frisco Mountains are the only non-NYC power I know of with Scullins. Did any other roads use them?
     
  15. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    Triplex, since this thread was up on the board I have found several photos of L-4b Mohawks with Scullins. I guess one must pay attention to the photos, eh? Rich Stoving's "NY Central Steam Power West of Buffalo, Vol. 1" has a shot of Hudson 5416 with a Scullin on the main, and Web-spokes on the first and third. Web-spokes were uncommon on the Central. Anyone know who made them?
    :tb-confused:
     
  16. Dr. Leonard

    Dr. Leonard New Member

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  17. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    Hi Dr. Leonard, welcome aboard. Sure glad to see you on here. I visit your site often and love your fantasy engines. That's a great shot of an L-4 with discs. :tb-biggrin:
     
  18. Dr. Leonard

    Dr. Leonard New Member

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