Thoughts on the Gorre & Daphetid

SPsteam Mar 16, 2021

  1. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

    2,419
    2,020
    52
    That was the nice thing about three rail O. HO equipment fit perfectly on two of the rails.

    Very inclusive.
     
    BarstowRick and freddy_fo like this.
  2. Doug Gosha

    Doug Gosha TrainBoard Member

    2,159
    2,799
    59
    Just try mentioning how much more railroad you can get into any given space with N scale sometime, to an HOer. It's like telling a Taliban member you're a Christian.

    Doug
     
    BarstowRick and badlandnp like this.
  3. acptulsa

    acptulsa TrainBoard Member

    2,419
    2,020
    52
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Shortround

    Shortround TrainBoard Member

    1,830
    800
    44
    I like watching most of the gauges. I have N, HO and O to play with. Just too little of what's required.
    The Experts work will always be remembered.
     
    BarstowRick and Doug Gosha like this.
  5. JMaurer1

    JMaurer1 TrainBoard Member

    1,999
    941
    37
    Beauty knows no scale. This was a thread about the G&D. The Great Divide is also about the G&D. Thanks for posting it here, I will be watching...and waiting for the chance to actually visit it.
     
    BarstowRick and Doug Gosha like this.
  6. Great Divide Line

    Great Divide Line TrainBoard Member

    28
    72
    2
    Too funny, yes indeed; transcends all scales it does.
     
    Doug Gosha likes this.
  7. Great Divide Line

    Great Divide Line TrainBoard Member

    28
    72
    2
    Just as a little added info; John wanted to rename his new layout the "Great Divide". Personally, I think it was a mistake that he did not do this. The new project up on the hill was extensive and even though he kept the original, smaller, layout that he built back in the late 1940's, and incorporated it into this much larger endeavor, I feel he had a perfect opportunity here to name this new model railroad the Great Divide Line and no one would have questioned it. But he did not, and his reasons are his own and have been mentioned in a few places through the years. John even mentioned he could keep the Logo the same and he rarely referred to his new layout as the Gorre & Daphetid. He almost always called it "The GD Line".

    Randy
     
    badlandnp and Doug Gosha like this.
  8. Hardcoaler

    Hardcoaler TrainBoard Member

    6,606
    19,247
    104
    I wonder if the wiring technology for the re-created G&D will be period correct or if DCC is part of the plan?
     
    BNSF FAN and Doug Gosha like this.
  9. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    8,919
    3,361
    134
    Not sure what the negative here is all about???

    John Allen has been and I'm sure will continue to be a very real influence to Model Railroading. In all scales.

    I had a chance to talk to Randy about John. As far as I know I'm one of maybe two left that knew John Allen.

    I was a kid back then and thanks to Dad being a ambulance jockey and mortician, I wasn't able to get over to Pacific Grove but twice. At the time I lived in Hollister, Ca and John was over in Pacific Grove. Twice to see the layout in it's glory days. Once again after the fire. I was with whoever locked up the door, after everything that could be stripped or moved was...well...gone. The house had been sold and that was that. I didn't get anything off the layout. Others closer to John, got the first and best pickings. Most was damaged by the fire or water damage.

    Randy, has his facts about the layout as dead on as you are going to get. Perhaps Dead On, isn't appropriate here. Right on might be better used.

    The layout wasn't big as some have indicated. It was built with the use of illusions and never finished. I heard him say, I wish I had room for larger curves. You'll hear me say, "Wider Curves are the Best Curves". On train layouts...of course. As you can see I was never influenced by him. Grin!!

    I'm glad to see someone who wants to recreate John Allen's layout. He used to say to me, that someone who wants to copy something from his layout is the biggest compliment that could be paid to him.

    I liked his station where the trains stopped at two different elevations. I wanted to copy that.

    So, I have no problem with anyone who wants to replicate and even improve on John Allen's train layout.

    May the Gore and Daphetid, live on forever in our hearts and minds.

    BarstowRick Out.
     
    JMaurer1, badlandnp, BNSF FAN and 3 others like this.
  10. Doug Gosha

    Doug Gosha TrainBoard Member

    2,159
    2,799
    59
    Yup, "Cross Junction" was/is always my favorite scene, too.

    And Rick, I think some of us are just kidding around. I know I was. I have absolutely nothing against any scale. In fact, I have quite a bit of HO equipment. If I had the room, I would have an HO layout, too, in addition to my 4 X 8 N scale layout, 4 X 8 Treble-O-Lectric layout, and 3 X 4 Arnold Rapido layout.

    Back in 2012, when I first had a 4 X 8 sheet of plywood on legs (in my living room), I first set up my American Flyer stuff on it for a while, then my HO stuff on it, for a while, and finally, built the latest N scale layout on it. In 2017, I temporarily dismantled the Treble-O-Lectric layout from its table and put the HO stuff on there for several months, during which time I built an old Tyco Mikado kit from the sixties and it was right up there with the most fun I have ever had with model railroading.

    Doug
     
  11. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    8,919
    3,361
    134
    Doug, you are good.

    Did you know. You and I are to much alike, in how we got started. However and here comes the compliment. You are further ahead of me in your modeling.

    I too started out with a 4X8 plywood central. Boued in the middle. Natural grades that way. Curves were to wide so that was the end of that. I was out of room. No where to expand. HO became the mainstay and it had curves that would fit but tight. My Six Axle, Athearn, Tyco, Rivarossi diesels/motors and full length HW passenger cars grumbled all the way around the layout. String-ling on occasion when they tried to stretch the curves out. Fun it wasn't.

    Athearn shorties did just fine but looked ODD!!

    We start where we start.

    Sometimes I look back and think. Those layouts were a lot more fun... then what I'm working on now. Did I say that. No, I couldn't of said that. I must have. I think I did.

    Where's the fun? This is turning into a job. Sigh!
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2021
  12. Great Divide Line

    Great Divide Line TrainBoard Member

    28
    72
    2
    Hey Rick, it was fun talking about your memories of John. I am so busy It may be some time until I get to it, but I am loosely planning an outline for a new Book on John that adds some of the more personal and often humorous stories I have gathered for sometime. And also some in depth layout construction discoveries and of course many wonderful Shots of John's layout only highlighting my own work where the discoveries are prevalent.

    With that said, if any other TrainBoard members have any stories or anything they'd like to mention please contact me anytime. I do not have to mention names if that is not wanted but I can't imagine anyone would mind. I am always looking for photographs or any item from John or his operators layouts as this project has now become a memorial in some ways and family members of some of these guy's and including Annabelle Allen (Johns Niece) have all endorsed this project and are so glad to have these names remembered and those days kept alive in the best way possible, through a scale model recreation of John's famous layout. The stories I have to write up about the many items I have been sent and the modeling connections to John are only just beginning. I expect there will be more as I continue on with this.

    Yes just some fun humor about the "Scale Wars" I too model in many scales and have done so professionally. We all know the benefits and the downfalls of each scale and it is fun to see just how far everyone can take these model scales and show us all the best of each... It's always MOSTLY about the fun of the hobby in every scale.

    Please check out the MRH web page for the TrainMasters TV program and sign up for the Show tomorrow. 11:00am Pacific Time. https://trainmasters.tv/programs/qat-09-invite

    Should be an interesting program.

    Randy
     
    badlandnp, BarstowRick and Doug Gosha like this.
  13. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    8,919
    3,361
    134
    Randy, Thanks for the shout out.

    There's one more thing I should share here and that would wrap it up for me. There is a video out that illustrates and goes into depth about how John Allen was influenced by other prominent model railroaders of the time. I'd refer you to it but I haven't been able to find it on line.

    I believe he was influenced by two gentleman and their layouts. One in Colorado and the other in Texas. Some of their real-estate influenced his structures. Don't take my word for the location of the layouts as this is coming out of my memory bank of could of been, might be, and i don't know for sure. But worth looking into.

    There were some things original with John Allen, and other things were influenced by those modelers he respected.

    Have fun and yes I will tag along to learn what I can as well.

    Thanks for the chit chat.
     
    badlandnp and Doug Gosha like this.
  14. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

    63,269
    10,020
    652
    Rick- Could the one in Texas have been Bill McClanahan? (Texas & Rio Grande Western.)
     
  15. Great Divide Line

    Great Divide Line TrainBoard Member

    28
    72
    2
    John was influenced by many other Model Railroaders I am sure. John traveled the country and visited many of the best layouts of his day and shared many ideas and made friends with some of the biggest movers and shakers of the industry in his time. I know who your speaking of in Texas, the name is not coming up for me, either. But it matters little. From photographs I have seen there are no resemblances of noteworthy similarity. These men were both masters of their craft and would not need to copy anything from each other to achieve their goals.

    For Example Bill Ryan of PFM fame was doing nice work and had some interesting mountain scenery on his own layout. Bill modeled the Kettle Valley Railroad.... Take a look at this real railroad and the tunnels and bridges on this one line just across the border in Canada. John traveled on this route with Bill. Remember the tall trestle behind the Devils Post Pile..? The one I use for my avatar pic from my own recreation. That was the Ryan Gulch Trestle. Named for Bill Ryan. Take a look and see if you do not see something very similar in this short video of a real railroad. I'd argue this was more of an influence than any other modelers work on John.



    For his tallest steel bridge over Squawbottom creek here is an almost identical construction in real life.....


    Many other modelers were doing great things beginning back in about the time John got involved in the mid 1940's. But to say his work was not original because he was influenced by someone who built a nice looking mountain or built a tall building confuses the meaning of the word "Influence" as it relates to anyone else work.

    Einstein was influenced by every previous mathematician he met or read about but his work was still his own.

    After speaking now, with Howard Zane and Malcolm Furlow, George Sellios, Tony Koester, Lou Sassi and a host of other better know modelers.... each one of them has shared some wonderful conversations about their work and John's total captivating masterpiece and his massive influence on each of them.

    I'd have to think that 95% of every modeler in the hobby of any age has been influenced by John. It is a fact that his work was undeniably. But I would not say either of these modelers were not original in their creative outpouring of scale model craftsmanship.

    I'd also say the only person in the room who would have to say "their work is not original" would be me.

    But then I choose to do this with what time I have. I made the choice to give up my own layout plans and have dedicated my modeling retirement to see that this incredible work of art is brought back to life. I have plenty of my own creations on display elsewhere so this is truly a labor of love and I am having the time of my life trying to capture the miniature world that was lost. I can't ever recapture the Magic of the Gorre & Daphetid but I think I can satisfy the curiosity that is in so many of us who have been curious and wished we could see that cellar.

    Randy
     
  16. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    8,919
    3,361
    134
    So Randy, are we arguing the point or agreeing?

    John himself said he was, "Influenced, admired, and had a great deal of respect for other modelers of the time." If he named them, I wouldn't remember them. Wish the video I would like to refer you to was handy. It would prove my point. I'd have to remember it first. Age, what does a guy do as he gets older.

    Of course my comments aren't meant to take away from the late John Allen. It does place him right in there with others of renown in the hobby. He was after all one of the most published and admired hobbyist. Do I dare say of all times?

    Of which I'm not. I was a kid who got lucky enough to have received his attention. Nothing more.
     
    badlandnp and Doug Gosha like this.
  17. Great Divide Line

    Great Divide Line TrainBoard Member

    28
    72
    2

    Interesting.... It is funny how many modelers (once they adopt a certain scale or perhaps a type of design or in my experience) Try and change your mind about your own preferences and use their own s the perfect choice and all others are substandard. That is not what this hobby is supposed to be about.

    I often run into the "purist prototype police" modelers who can't seem to give any credit toward realism in modeling to anyone who does not adhere to the strict and sacred pursuit of a prototype. I try and explain to them that they can tell me a scene is exactly from documented photographs from the B&O or the NYC, but unless the viewer knows this..... what difference does it make for realism. Many people have created scale scenes that never existed in the real world but to the viewer they could be totally real. A diligently modeled scene from the B&O could be from the C&O if the viewer has no knowledge of these lines and in most cases they could care less.. A well built building done freelance with realistic features and scale details is every bit as real as a well documented creation.

    I am only trying to explain there is some arrogance found within this hobby and I can tell you John Allen, as famous and as amazing as his work was, never acted like that. Those who do will never impress me but I do run into them because of the work I am doing and they seem to try and throw a few jabs before even being introduced.

    Oddly enough I have also had several rather odd discussions from some of the proponents of the multi level design. Now this system can help to eliminate any track that uses similar scenery to traverse through a room, but I'd much rather stand in a room that looks like a miniature world and is full of breathtaking scenery, over the multi deck designs where the room itself is not pretty to look at or stand in at all.

    And, as for the excuse that a track that travels through a valley or over bridges at different heights within the valley multiple times and that is somehow realistically wrong; This statement is not accurate at all.

    Your eye always seems to travel along with the train your watching and as you traverse back across an area, using different bridges, as John did along "one wall", your eye follows that train and the surrounding terrain. There is no moral modeling sin created here. Your eye see's the spectacular scenery and the fact there may be a bridge above or below any scene is of almost no distraction at all. In fact I'd contend that it enhances the whole breathtaking view for the visitor.
    The exaggerated value of this comment, that is often used as the main argument for multi deck designs, is not generous at all, in fact it is rather mean spirited and more importantly, it is not accurate and never has been.

    I'd take being able to stand in an incredible giant canyon, where you can walk in front of a wall of mountain scenery that runs to the floor all with three or four bridges that traverse different levels of spectacular ravines, over any room full of intrusive, stacks of shelves used to create the separation of elevations. In fact I'd say the scenic vista you lose with shelves is far from a benefit, I hate to sound insulative, but a beautiful mountainside (as John Allen's GD Line had so much of) in comparison to two or three shelves crossing this same area to separate the tracks, would be a terrible loss of magnificent artistic design and a crime to the modeling world had he used this approach for his own layout.

    ON a side note...; shelve layouts are often hard to view well for me, as you have to bend over to see the lowest shelf or stand on a lifted walkway to view the top. Some of the "mushroom" designs are interesting but I still feel what could be achieved by floor to ceiling scenery at least in some sections of the room would be a better look and far more fun for the viewer. But then I am not the guy whop tells these modelers those things. Yet this group often offers comments about how my style of model railroading is just obsolete or overrated. Not the nicest way to welcome a fellow modeler...

    I wonder if the modelers who seem to so often love to mention their dislike of designs like John's even know that John himself was the man who first proposed they would come into existence and even gave a few clinics on how to build them. Yep, it's a fact. John is the father of multilevel design. LOL... talk about making heads pop

    And when you think about it, my work is "Prototype Modeling" my "Prototype" just happens to be John Allen's Model Railroad. More heads pop.... lol.

    Had he lived I'd bet John would have sent in, for publication, the first multilevel design. I'd also bet he would have created some areas that still incorporated full wall scenery.

    But no mater. John's work still stands the test of time and I also think some shelf designs are a fantastic use of space, I really do like some that are well done. And there is a very good use for them especially for a club where main line track length can make a huge difference in realistic operations for many operators.

    It is good to find the people who realize there can be excellence in any design and any scale. Sad that I have found many who lack the generosity to admit this. I still believe in the silent masses.

    Randy
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
  18. Great Divide Line

    Great Divide Line TrainBoard Member

    28
    72
    2

    I see no argument. I think we both find John's work amazing still today. I do think that I am trying to make the point that John was certainly influenced by these men's layouts. I would say he was influenced by many. But look at the videos. they are great footage to watch. If you know John's work at all... you will see the bridges and tunnels in full size in real life and we know he traveled to see these. Food for thought I guess..

    Randy
     
    badlandnp, Doug Gosha and BarstowRick like this.
  19. Hytec

    Hytec TrainBoard Member

    13,144
    3,962
    183
    Randy, I created "original" scenery on my layout, but it was hardly original. I was influenced by my youthful memories of northern New Hampshire and upstate New York. Also devouring MR articles and photos from 1947 on, including the G&D. Every event we have experienced is filed away in our memories. You ask me a specific question about a location, I might not have a clue. But our conversation as we discussed our layouts might trigger a visual memory that becomes my, or your next scene. However, our individual creations, yours and mine, are totally our own derived from our personal experiences.
     
    Doug Gosha and BarstowRick like this.
  20. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

    8,919
    3,361
    134
    You may be on to something. Why does that sound familiar to me? Working on it. Working on it.
     
    Doug Gosha likes this.

Share This Page