VGN 2-8-8-2

bnsf4354 May 15, 2001

  1. bnsf4354

    bnsf4354 TrainBoard Member

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    Been checking out prototypes to get the details right on my VGN #737. I came across the following photo of #724. Notice all the stuff on the front of the smokebox. Is this just a unit-specific feature or did all of 2-8-8-2s have this in VGN service. My P2K has an uncluttered smokebox that looks nothing like this. Anyone got any thoughts or explainations? :confused: By the way, Lifelike fixed by P2K and got it back to me within exactly 7 days--that's good service!
    [​IMG]

    [ 15 May 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

    [ 15 May 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]

    [ 15 May 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]
     
  2. ChrisDante

    ChrisDante TrainBoard Member

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    Well thinking logically, if you look at the the loco there isn't a lot of places to hang the two air compressors, and the smoke box was handy. Look where the forward valves are, they are in front of the smokebox, almost on top of the cow catcher. Does your model have 2 compressors, if so where did they put them. If not,... great place for super detailing I know that the Big Boy does'nt have them but I think it's somewhat longer.

    BTW that's a bad a** looking engine, what a great picture. You just know that it'll pull stumps when the engineer snuffs the pop offs. Any idea what the drawbar horsepower was? I think you would need at least 4 SD40's just to equal it.
     
  3. bnsf4354

    bnsf4354 TrainBoard Member

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    That is the only photo I can find of the Virginian 2-8-8-2s. The TE is rated at not less than 136,985lb in simple expansion mode with 3400 DB Horsepower. That's about what Dash-9s and SD70s are doing today in TE. Took 80 years to get back to where we were. Seems strange doesn't it. Does anyone know where I can find other VGN photos on the web. ATSF 2-8-8-2s would also be helpful since VGN bought theirs.

    Chris, can you explain further the equipment on the smokebox. What was its purpose? Did all articulateds have this feature? Thanks for the help.

    [ 15 May 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]
     
  4. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    BNSF4354, do you know when that photo was taken? The Virginian was probably no different than other RRs in modifying their engines. I don't know much about the Virginian, but have a builder's photo (Alco) of 604, built in 1912, and 900, built in 1919. That would imply that the VA had about 300 of these engines, if numbered sequentially. Anyway, the 604, as built, had a clean smokebox front end. The two cross-compound air compressors were mounted on the fireman's side above the running boards, just over the aft cylinder. One of the air tanks was mounted up high, over the compressors, a la 1522 or "torpedo" GP-9s.
    The 900, on the other hand, has the compressors mounted on the smokebox front, like your photo of 724 (How did they open the smokebox?) The air tank on the engineer's side below the running board is same as 724 also. 724 appears to have (maybe) a Worthington feedwater heater pump below the compressors, center, front of smokebox. The drivers look to be very small diameter, probably accounting for the massive drawbar pull. Hope this helps. :cool:
     
  5. bnsf4354

    bnsf4354 TrainBoard Member

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    I have no idea about the date of the picture, but I am guessing late 50's---to early 60's. I looked at my loco again and found that the air compressors are indeed mounted on the side of the body just above the driver pistons. I don't know how many to total Y3s the VGN had because I can't find much of anything on the web about the rr. I do know that VGN #736-742 were the 8 Y3s (A model) that were purchased from ATSF in 1947-48. These were originally made for N&W in 1919 and numbered 2014-15, 2021-22,2026,2029,and 2035.

    If anyone finds a photo roster or database for either the VGN Y3s or the ATSF 1790 Class Y3s I would sure appreciate hearing about it. I would also settle for the N&W.

    I am specifically looking for photos of either VGN #737, ATSF 1792, or N&W 2015 since they are all the same engine. Thanks guys for the education on the air compressors.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [ 16 May 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]
     
  6. bnsf4354

    bnsf4354 TrainBoard Member

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    As mentioned before LL got my 2-8-8-2 back to me in a week, but after giving the thing the complete workout I can say that they effectively did nothing to correct the problems. I have called them and complained---I await their response to my contention that they pay for shipping and/or supply me with a new loco. DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME LIFELIKE!!!

    [ 16 May 2001: Message edited by: bnsf4354 ]
     
  7. dbn160

    dbn160 Passed away January 16, 2004 In Memoriam

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    There is a webpage on these locos, both model and prototype, at this URL

    http://www.ja-gps.com.au/n&w/y3model.html


    These locomotives served 3 different RR's over a more than 35 year period so their components could be moved around to many different positions as the locomotives came into the shops for service/repair/overhaul.

    Also some photos from the N&W imagebase at
    Virginia Tech University.
    *******

    Here is a shot of VGN 737 showing the airpumps mounted on the side instead of on the smokebox

    http://scholar2.lib.vt.edu/imagebase_new/norfolksouthern/full/ns1384.jpeg


    and a similar view of VGN 738 here

    http://scholar2.lib.vt.edu/imagebase_new/norfolksouthern/full/ns1328.jpeg


    eN(&W)joy


    Don B
     
  8. 7600EM_1

    7600EM_1 Permanently dispatched

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    Meaning the air compresors are on the smoke box front tells me one thing.... Its stay bolted fast and to access it the mechanic would have to remove the pumps and then remove the stay bolts to get inside the smoke box, to remove soot or ash.

    The C&O railroad was known for smoke box mounted air compressors. They got a nic name it was "Flying Pumps" which the C&O started.

    If you would pay attension to any railroad, ones with a decent emblem kept their smoke boxes pretty cleaned up to put the emblems on the smoke box door. The ones that didn't have a good emblem for its name sake was known for having the "Flying Pumps" which as I said are the air compressors on the smoke box front and also were stay bolted in style. It was hard on a mechanic, because of the work needed to get into a smoke box to clean it out. If the soot and ash isn't cleaned out of the smoke box it would cause the the smoke to backtrack into the firebox and smoke like crazy when the doors were opened to add coal or for the loco's with stokers they didn't need to open it to add coal but to open it to see if the stoker is working properly and also if the fire is burning and hot enough to produce steam to make it GO..... But in either case it would fill the cab with smoke if the smoke box wasn't cleaned out regularly and evenually cause problems. Maybe even a HUGH bang, and hurl the boiler 100 feet in the air and perish everyone in the cab. This is why stay bolted steam loco's weren't common. They were on most roads but not abundantly. Just a few cause they were hard to maintain and the thought of a boiler exposion was a engineers worst enemy and worst nightmare...... Why the C&O railroad loved 'em is beyond me!! Unless they had some really hard workers in their shops for mechanics that loved to take all that off just to clean out the smoke box!!!! :D I know I wouldn't want that concidering that the alternative was easier and better to do and not as much work and besides that the road would have loco's in service more then being in the shops for a simple cleaning out, but still take 2 or 3 days to clean it out with the Flying Pumps, and the stay bolted type boiler fronts. The regular smoke box fronts without the Flying Pumps had way more time in service then the stay bolted loco's did because of this it was a winning style with railroads that wanted to keep loco's in service instead of out of serice in the shops being cleaned out which saved the railroads alot of money and have a regular roster of loco's in service then not in service which made them money. A great loco thats out of service in the shop is not a great one its only a great one when its hauling freight and bring in the big bucks. One thats in the shop is costing the railroad money..... :D

    [ 17 May 2001: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
     
  9. Alan

    Alan Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Don, you always manage to dig out information - on anything [​IMG]

    With the side mounted compressors, it looks a completely different locomotive! I have always loved ones with smokebox mounted compressors, they look so mean! One I particularly liked was the Z? class on the Northern Pacific. Also some C & O locomotives.
     
  10. watash

    watash Passed away March 7, 2010 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    John, I believe I posted a 2-8-8-2 a long time ago, that might show how we got into the smoke box front. If I find it, I'll post it again. In the mean time, notice on the photo of #724, directly under the bell, between the compressors, there are two of three hinges and a partial row of bolts. That is a door to get inside. Those engines were larger than you realize. That door is nearly six feet high! After we loosened all those 1-1/4" dog bolts, we could just step over into the smoke box to service the draft manifold and check boiler tubes. That is one of the first jobs new hires get to do. As soon as you get in there, some old hand gives the smoke stack a smart rap with his 5 pound shop hammer! The "thing" that comes shivering out of that deafening smoke box is totally covered in Lamp Black Soot! You don't hear for a week either! :D
     
  11. locomotive2

    locomotive2 TrainBoard Member

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    Please correct me if I'm wrong. I was unaware
    that LifeLike had any repair facilities in
    Baltimore. Any time(7) I sent my diesels(made
    in China)back, I received a replacement. I was surprised to see your posting that you
    were returing the unit(Roco of Austria) and
    you received it back so soon.
     
  12. 7600EM_1

    7600EM_1 Permanently dispatched

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    Watash,
    I did notice that on the picture of the Virginian loco in this post, but I was refering to others that didn't show any signs of an access door on the boiler front. They had to remove all the hardware to the pumps and the pumps themself to get inside it. I can recall on a loco the B&O bought from Seaboard in I believe it was 1947 the KB-1's (2-6-6-4's). They had "Flying Pumps" and NO access door on the smoke box, while they were still in their delivery as made for Seaboard. But after the B&O had them they cleaned up the smoke box fronts and such and replaced the whole boiler front with a new front with an access door and put the "B&O Capitol Dome" emblem in the center of the door.

    But when they were as delivered to B&O in the Seaboard design, the only thing I seen to get inside was to remove the pumps and all the hardware to the pumps to get into it by means of 2 HUGH hinges on the edge of the boiler itself like the UP had on their Big Boys and on their Challengers. It was like one hugh door. And covered the whole front of the boiler. Thats how the 2-6-6-4's were from Seaboard when the B&O got them. But after having them the B&O refitted that with a boiler front kinda like the EM-1's had just not as burly. This is what I was refering to and didn't explain it as I should have. :D
     
  13. slimjim

    slimjim Passed away January 2006 In Memoriam

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    2-8-8-2's

    Class Numbers Qty Builder Built Scrapped Notes

    AB 600 1 Baldwin 1910 1937
    AD 601-606 6 Richmond 1912-13 1934
    USA 701-720 20 Richmond 1919 1953-55
    USB 721-735 15 Richmond 1923 1954-55
    USE 736-742 7 Schenectady 1919 1954-55 ex ATSF


    In 1947 VGN bought seven USRA 2-8-8-2's from ATSF. Originally
    N&W Y-3's 2014, 2015, 2021, 2022, 2026, 2029 and 2035. ATSF
    numbers were 1794, 1792, 1790, 1791, 1793, 1795 and 1796.
     
  14. bnsf4354

    bnsf4354 TrainBoard Member

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    Man guys, you are great with the info!!! Thanks for that photo of 737. As far as the repair stuff goes---I sent it to Baltimore as instructed by their customer service number. It came back in 7 days, but it is not fixed!! In reverse the driver bars hit up against the valve bar rigging and binds and then snaps apart. Going forward isn't too bad, but this should not be in reverse especially for a retail price of $375. Any of you other owners have this problem?? I'd sure like to know!!
     
  15. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    John, I know what you mean about the front end of some of those locomotives. This is not a very good picture because of the sun angle when I took it, but it is of Union Pacific 9000 at Pomona, CA. UP seems to have put all of their hardware on the front of the smokebox on these engines. I think you are right about having to take everything off the front to get into the smokebox. (By the way I made some other steam fans mad when I called this engine "ugly" in an earlier post). Fitz
    [​IMG]

    [ 18 May 2001: Message edited by: fitz ]
     
  16. watash

    watash Passed away March 7, 2010 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    Fitz, I think this ex C&O 2-8-8-2 is the one we were looking at a year or so ago. It is a R.F.&P in the photo, having been sold and out shopped several times since it was new. She would be a detail hound's dream wouldn't she?
    [​IMG]

    Some of the engines with flying pumps did require releasing all the dog bolts around the smoke box front then undoing the pipe unions to swing the whole mess open. They were a snap to work on, and was not as hot in there either.

    Found her! I would love to see this lady charging down the main with a string of Pullmans! Also an R.F.&P. This old gal may not have been much to look at, but she could fly! Her drivers were over six feet! She was the dancer on the Midnight Express. They used to say that if you didn't let her out over 75 she wouldn't fool with it, but at 80 she began to dance like a Zephr and was still breathing easy at the end of her run! Memories, brings a tear to the eye, doesn't it Fitz?
    [​IMG]

    [ 18 May 2001: Message edited by: watash ]
     
  17. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    Watash, man, you are right about a detailer's dream on that 2-8-8-2. It would take me about a month to put all that piping and accessories on that engine.
    No wonder it wasn't hot in the smokebox of those engines. By the time you got all the bolts and universals undone, the whole engine was probably cold.
    And that RF&P Pacific--who would do such a thing to a racehorse like that? Seems to me that we both put those pictures up once before, the 9000 and the RF&P Pacific, on a forum about "U-word" engines.Fitz :cool:
     
  18. watash

    watash Passed away March 7, 2010 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    Fitz, did you notice the Virginnian 2-8-8-2's were painted Indigo Blue below the running boards when new? So was the RF&P engines. The Pacific was originally Indogo all over, with Black wheels, but the 2-8-8-2 #2 was black above the running boards and in the fluteing on the connecting and drive rods. Was really a pretty engine when new. The flying air pumps were easy to dis-connect to swing the fire box front open, though that was only done for terminal over haul, or for replacing flue tubes. Hell of a job too. Deafening in there! :mad:
     
  19. fitz

    fitz TrainBoard Member

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    Looking at that photo that BNSF3254 posted, it sure looks like indigo blue below the running boards. When I worked on the SR-71, I think Lockheed called that color "Indigo Blue." Sure looked black to me. ;)
     
  20. 7600EM_1

    7600EM_1 Permanently dispatched

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    Fitz, and Watash,
    You know on that "Bald Face 9" The UP #9000, 4-12-2. I believe it would like a mint with the front end cleaned up and 2 decent size elephant ears, not hugh ones now I mean just the right size kind. And you would have a great looking locomotive.

    Watash, that 2-8-8-2 you posted isn't that the one I was looking for pictures of that the B&O aquired and changed the R.R. class to an/or EE-2, or an EE-2a? You did mention to me in e-mail that it was so ugly that it was beautiful! HE! Anyway i'm still working on that loco of mine that was a Y6b and is now going to be an EE-2 or a EE-2a 2-8-8-2 just like you posted. I do have a question on that loco being I did something before I started modeling it. The tender on it in the picture, was the same tender used on it when the B&O got it or did they refit a tender to it? My reason for asking is that the original tender to the Y6b is stolen and coupled for life to one of my EM-1s, being that the Y6b welded steel, square tender is the closest thing to the tenders Baldwin suplied with the EM-1's. So I used it for another project before I decided on doing a 2-8-8-2, EE-2 in B&O. But anyway if the B&O used the original tender that was with those 2-8-8-2's. It is obsolete anyway concidering that the 2-8-8-2's had Vanderbuilt tenders and the Y6b's had square welded tenders and I suplimented the EM-1's with Y6b tenders and now that I robed that Y6b of its square tender i'm in need of a decent Rivarossi (AHM) Vanderbuilt tender for the 2-8-8-2. All my EM-1's have EX. Y6b tenders, that I bought as loners, and the last one that I robed for the 2-8-8-2 Y6b I have. Trouble is finding one that is Vanderbuilt and Rivarossi. I have been told to go with a Mantua Vanderbuilt tender but like me always I like to keep the manufactures together. And besides, the Ross Vanderbuilt tenders are better detailed and truest to proto-type then any Vanderbuilt tenders i've seen besides brass. I finally got a Roundhouse vanderbuilt tender for a Q class B&O 2-8-2, that i'm going to model because of the one i'm going to do is a rare one for the B&O. The cab number on it is 4610, and has multiple oriface stack, and elephant ears. I'm modeling it just because it was different from all the other loco's the B&O had. :D Just to be different on my layout and at the shows. Now if I can get lucky again and find a Vanderbuilt tender made by Rivarossi......... :D
     

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