Micro-Trains Whats going on at Micro-Trains?

BobHendrickson Sep 21, 2016

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Is Micro-Trains giving up on Z scale?

  1. Yes

    16.7%
  2. No

    83.3%
  1. BobHendrickson

    BobHendrickson New Member

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    Hello everyone long time lurker first time poster.

    So I have a question about Micro-Trains. Over the years I've had several Z scale layouts, my most recent one being a 4 x 15 foot around the walls dogbone with over 230 feet of track. I don't currently have a layout after having recently moved but all of my locomotives, rolling stock, structures, details, and such are boxed up. As many of us here we've invested thousands of dollars into our hobby. I'm wanting to start a new layout again, but I've been away from modelling for 4 or 5 years and now that I'm looking at what's available I'm not sure about the seemingly bleak future of Z scale. Several of my friends also have large Z layouts collecting dust because they're waiting for something new to come out. All we hear are crickets.

    I'm concerned about the disappearance of the Micro-Trains GP35, GP9 and SD40-2. At it seemed it was temporary until they found a new overseas suppler (wait .. I thought they made everything "in the usa"...), but as I've read it seems we will never see these locos again. I need more SD40-2's, but I cant find them anywhere. I've also noticed that there seems to not be any new freight car bodies being released either. Sure we can buy AZL and for American locos that's about it. But I cannot afford AZL's frieght cars, and Micro-Trains is not making anything new. I have all their boxcars, flats, etc. We need affordable modern tank cars, coil cars, coal cars and more. But almost all their Z scale models are from the 70s 80s and 90s. Nothing new and each month their releases are fewer in Z. So this begs the question - is Micro-Trains giving up on the Z scale community? And it looks like they made flex track but no switches or crossovers for it?

    A few years ago everything was fantastic in Z scale. Micro Trains used to be one of the industry leaders, and they now all they're doing is putting out are reprints of 40 year old tooling. What happened? Am I reading this all wrong? Is this just a sign of the times?

    Bob
     
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  2. rvn2001

    rvn2001 TrainBoard Member

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    See "Question to Joe D'Amato" 8 posts below yours.
     
  3. BobHendrickson

    BobHendrickson New Member

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    Thom, thank you for that! I feel silly now. I even did a search and didn't come up with that.

    Thank you, that answers several of my questions. I guess I'll just hold on to my stuff for now, and hope it turns around for Z before I cant see anymore.
     
  4. Doug A.

    Doug A. TrainBoard Supporter

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    I guess from a different perspective...there seems to be more in Z than I ever thought existed! I got into Z about a year and a half ago and I've really been amazed at what is available. Monthly releases of 3 or 4 products from AZL, 3-4 from MTL, and 3-4 from the various others like Full Throttle.

    It's definitely not the mid-2000's, but still pretty well keeps my hobby budget in the red.

    I will concede that the MTL SD40-2's, Geeps, etc are not actively receiving new schemes, and I do wish I'd been in Z to get some of the custom items like Hobo Tim's intermodal goodies and the like. But, the MTL locos still seem to be pretty easy to come by for the most part.
     
  5. ztrack

    ztrack TrainBoard Supporter Advertiser

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    MTL has released one new body style in the past year. It is the 50' boxcar with both a plug door and sliding door. Here is an image:

    [​IMG]

    I was very excited to see these cars come out. AZL is definitely the leader for Z scale locos and modern rolling stock. But AZL also has a higher detail and more add-on parts which contributes to the price difference. But too Doug's point, we have more North American Z than ever... and more is coming! I definitely wouldn't give up on MTL. Z scale needs them. Many of us dealers have plenty of stock of MTL's previous releases and we would love to see these items find homes.

    Rob
     
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  6. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    Our economy the uncertainties with individual budgets and things are bound to slow down a little.

    This time of year you will see hobby shops clean out their shelves in order to make room for the Holiday items. You can expect things to slow down and then all of a sudden speed-up as we get closer to all the HO, HO'ing...uhh...err...ZZZ'ing.

    It's all good.
     
  7. ZFRANK

    ZFRANK TrainBoard Member

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    I would like to see more rolling stock kits or rolling stock where we still have to add the detailparts ourselves. It might save costs, ... but at the other hand I'll guess the market is too small for these.
     
  8. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

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    MTL used make N Scale freight car kits...
     
  9. Joe D'Amato

    Joe D'Amato TrainBoard Member

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    1. OK...so a totally backwards poll question? Maybe the question should be "why are modelers turning away from Z Scale?" Our choices don't happen in a vacuum, we only respond to what the market is doing. We don't have the relatively bountiful financial resources our competitors have both here and abroad so we can only produce to the levels we can survive with and to market demand. I would also take exception to the notion that our quality and detail is less than our competitors as well...I realize that was a bit of shameless self promotion...but hey!! China production costs are significantly less then what it costs us to do it in 'Merica regardless of the number of extra do-dads you have on your boxcar. I think we all have our strengths and need to spend less time comparing apples and apples in an attempt to gain market share? Just sayin'. After the banks killed our economy the landscape changed and we also saw the migration of some of the movers and shakers in Z moved on to other larger scales looking for different modeling opportunities. Sales went south fast and never returned and that was a time we were still producing our loco's, track and freight cars at the same pace as before the crash. We've reduced our selections by one or two cars a month and the cost of our motors tripled in 6 years, keen motivation to hold back on loco's given the increase in costs. Folks are screaming for the same weathered and graffiti cars we do in N scale but when we were doing it those sales were soft...but we are going to give it another go and see if folks put their money where there Social Media rants (kidding) are LOL So I think the question is more about why folks stopped buying and those answers can help us figure out what's going on and where to go 'cause I don't know. We can do limited production and charge twice as much or feed a bigger beast and keep quantities up and prices down...still on the hunt for that fella. I think anyone with an objective eye sees the difference in the participation in scale between 2005 and now...Loren Snyder often laments about the good old days. There are notable exceptions, Mr Dave, Zocal and a few hearty caffeinated hanger on-ers in the Portland/Seattle Area. Haven't heard much form the Milwaukee boys or from the Amtrak Corridor, Texas has been quiet, but on the flip side we did have a huge gathering at the Portland NMRA last year by the same mentioned folks. Some of the old guard has been replaced with new blood and that is encouraging. We have product in the works and have not given up on Z. I have a few ideas that might spark some excitement and meet head on the challenges of our competitors so we are still in it. News of our demise is a bit premature.
    Joe
     
  10. HOexplorer

    HOexplorer TrainBoard Supporter

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    "After the banks killed our economy the landscape changed and we also saw the migration of some of the movers and shakers in Z moved on to other larger scales looking for different modeling opportunities."

    Joe, I guess I would be included in your statement above. Z scale, and MTL, provided me with a new hobby and in that hobby I discovered I could do scenery pretty well. I never purchased an AZL product, but appeared in Ztrack five times. I bought three of your Moguls and only a couple GP35's. Steam was my first love in the hobby. I never learned much about how railroads work, but I found I also had a knack for photography. I started in 2004 in Z and ended in 2009. The main reason was my yearning for scenery fidelity and photography. Today I am in On30 and could not be happier. I could afford Z Scale so that is not my reason for leaving.

    Today, I look at Z scale as richer persons scale. Remember those Moguls cost $500 apiece. I'm pretty confident that 'money' is Z's biggest problem. I read your post above and feel bad for all Z scalers because of the apparent lack of new items and the seemingly lack of R/D for future offerings. I believe all you say, and wish Z Scale all the best. Thanks for all you do. Jim O'Connell
     
  11. BobHendrickson

    BobHendrickson New Member

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    Joe,

    Thank you for responding. It's always been my impression that MTL is a stand-up company, and your personal reply affirms this (while others may be taking a few less than professional jabs at your company).

    I completely understand the market and your situation now. THat's a shame. But I'll keep all my stuff. I'm sure I'll be back with Z scale at some point. But for now I'll be migrating to N Scale.

    And on that note Ive been doing some research on what's out there these days. I agree with the others that while MTL is making some very high quality models, the competition is definitely beating you on the details. Theres no question about it. Joe, take a look at these two models. One is Athearn, one is MTL.

    The Athearn has
    • very fine railings and photo etched roofwalks,
    • scale ride hight,
    • separate underframe brake lines and piping detail,
    • separate wire grab irons,
    • scale knuckle couplers,
    • metal wheels
    Your model looks decidedly clunky and overscaled in comparision. Even though they're both nice models, the bad part is theirs is cheaper!

    MTL http://thumbs1.picclick.com/d/w1600...rains-MTL-N-Weathered-Graffiti-ACFX-2-Bay.jpg

    Athearn: http://cdn3.volusion.com/ztna9.tft5b/v/vspfiles/photos/ATH-23404-2.jpg?1456472651

    I'd say MTL better figure out how to up their game. Nearly everyone is at MTL's level if not beyond these days! It's amazing how much everything has advanced since I've been "away" from Model Trains.

    Bob.
     
  12. SJ Z-man

    SJ Z-man TrainBoard Member

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    Joe (and Eric, Ben and others at MTL) understand the much smaller Z market and as stated, it did shrink quite a bit. While the market did shrink, it picked back up in AZL's favor. The owners are full time non-rail business owners, their passion of the hobby and ability to fund projects (not all pay back in full), it has helped us keep Z alive. But with MTL having lost the locos and section track supplier (and so did many, many others when HUGE Sanda Kan management retired) and AZL pushing out a vast amount of locos, along with endless car bodies, it doesn't help MTL nor put them in a position to want to compete (as much). I (for one) appreciate any new body style and *especially* the weathered cars, graffiti'd or not and challenge MTL to progress forward. Its *not* easy for *any* US manufacturer to produce against China's cost their costs have been rising too, fast ! And with model train markets dwindling, it's not getting easier.

    Hang in there. I'm enjoying it and in 5 or so years, I'll be enjoying it a *lot* more. Like, finally having a home layout, instead of modules 2-5x a year for a weekend.
     
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  13. tjdreams

    tjdreams TrainBoard Member

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    "why are modelers turning away from Z Scale?"
    Are they turning away from Z? or is it that you now have more competition in the market place?
    Well their is no deigning that since the economy tanked a few years back the market has dropped but I believe it dropped across the board in all scales.
    Could it be With Z scale already having a smaller market base It felt the hit a lot more?
    But that was years ago and things have bin improving. I think their is more Z scale stuff available now days than their ever was before.

    Lets see, I like the MTL (Z scale) Laser kits I enjoy building them and think they turned out great. I would defiantly buy more, but OH wait a minute they are not made any more so I have to go to your competitors to find a comparable product.
    Track and turnouts MTL has a very limited choice of options as compared to what their competitors are offering now days.
    Rolling stock here things are about equal in my book, MTL has the magnetic Couplers that allow for switching operations and some nice affordable runner packs and some nice cars available. The competition also has some nice rolling stock but offers a newer or should I say other models that are not available from MTL But sadly with out MTL's magnetic couplers.
    Locomotives either I search out and find a dealer who still has a MTL GP 35 GP9 SD 40-2 in stock and in the road name of my choice or I buy a F7, That or I go to one of your competitors, In todays world many people are going to DCC well again I have to search out and find a dealer who still has a decoder for one of the GP's or SD's in stock. and for the F7 well Milling out the frame halves to make room for a decoder is way beyond the skills of most. That or buy from one of your competitors. But don't wait too long because some of your competitors Loco's are selling out.

    IN MY Opinion
    In just those 4 categories MTL is lacking in 3 and only tied at best on the 4th
    I may be completely wrong about this but, I don't think its that people are moving away from Z scale I think they are going to MTL's competitors.

    Personally
    10 years ago MTL got the Lions share of what I spent in Z scale.
    Now Days I spend 3 or 4 times as much $$ on my Z scale hobby, and the lions share of what I spend today goes to MTL's competitors.
    Why the change? Simple MTL doesn't have what I want.
    Its a shame as I am happy with the Z scale products I've bought from MTL in the past and I think most people feel the same.
    I still buy one or more piece of MTL Z scale rolling stock every month.

    I would Buy more MTL Z scale products if they were there to buy.
    But the bottom line Is
    I can not buy what is not there to be bought.

    David
     
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  14. BarstowRick

    BarstowRick TrainBoard Supporter

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    I think I said this earlier but may be worth repeating. One barometer you can use. If the Z scale is still sitting on the hobby shop shelves...it isn't selling. Your mom and pop LHS, isn't likely to order more just so they can have it
    sitting on the shelf. Shelf queens are never welcome at a hobby shop, mail order, large distributor or otherwise. You can have stacks of unsold items in a warehouse but that does not a income make.

    If we ain't buying it isn't selling and most likely it will not be produced. One customer does not a base make.

    Price might be a consideration but hardly what you want to measure things by. Today, even though China might be producing things cheaper the MSRP is still climbing out of sight. There's profit to be made in inflation and the world is a greedy place.

    Never mind what affect that has on the person with a set income and no cost of increase raises for... four years. I mean the kid at McDonald's is making more then I am. Sigh!

    Keep the faith and let's hope our economy settles down into a predictable pattern that doesn't include those over inflated.... higher prices. Just dreaming.

    The ball is in the consumers court.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  15. shamoo737

    shamoo737 Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    I totally agree with you David. I haven't bought any MTL because the bulk of my money is going to AZL Maybe is by choice, but sometimes I am force to buy from the competition. Most of the new locos and cars are from AZL. I ask myself, how many boxcars can I use, and my response is, I have more then I can use.
     
  16. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    I'm gonna get back in Z in a big way, when I move into my retirement home. Until then I am only buying colourful or otherwise appealing locos and cars. I had quietly been collecting a lot of MTL weathered cars, as they just need a shot of dullcote, fvm wheels, and some rustall to look great.

    Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk
     
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  17. Joe D'Amato

    Joe D'Amato TrainBoard Member

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    Hey Bob, given this is about Z, focus man, focus... LOL I'm not sure it's fair to compare a 20 year old body style to a brand new one and say we are lagging behind. Look at 20 year old Athearn N scale cars... If you look at the cars we have been releasing the past few years we addressed the ride height, added body mount couplers, finer details and more added on parts, injection molded see through roof walks etc. We are releasing a proto scale coupler system next month and shortly after that metal wheels. I would say our heavyweights are superior to any other heavyweight available in detail and breadth of offerings (ten and counting). If you look at our new Airslide hopper we have see through, thin profile roof walks and photo etch brake platforms, separate air pipes on the underside, body mount couplers and correct ride height. Even the scheme and the paint color is matched. We have been doing this for years. As to price, yep, we have a difficult time keeping it close to the cars produced in china. We have a full time staff that's paid a living wage with 100 % participation in medical, dental and 401 K benifits, made in America, and are not forced to live in on site dorms working long hours for almost nothing. And on top of that when you call you talk with a real person and if you need help you get it, and if you need parts, they are on the way...Apples to pears really.

    Z scale kits are gone because sales evaporated...pretty simple. A one man shop can do 10-50 kits and sing all the way to the bank...that won't work here as Robert Ray will attest.

    Part of what I do every day is look at the market and assess what we can do. The Z market is smaller, you can't argue that. Lots of smaller dealers are gone now with a few larger ones surviving on transition sales and deep product lines. We look at trends in unit sales and make decisions going forward. Your right, if its not on the shelf you can't buy it, but it may not be on the shelf because you are one of the few left willing or able to buy it anymore. It's a tight line we walk and we have to do things that keep the business healthy and growing. Anyone even remotely interested in Z Scale knows my work and dedication to the growth of Z scale over the past 15 years. So it's not easy to see the scale you love compress and not able to keep pumping new product into it. We need a lot more you's who will buy, buying to make that happen, and frankly they are looking elsewhere and at different scales.

    Joe



     
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  18. SJ Z-man

    SJ Z-man TrainBoard Member

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    Right behind you Joe.

    Whaley-man: good point on how many with limited resources spend. Many have complained the large scale rollout of AZL locos has left many without what is needed, and that could even be the $15-$30 MTL rolling stock.

    I still gladly buy MTL rolling stock but, western roads and preferably weathered limits what they get out of me. Then there is the added $3.50 for me to put in metal wheels.

    If MTL would open up their trucks to the Z market, they would increase their OEM sales. But it's too late now, I feel.


    The BAZ BoyZ
     
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  19. Doug A.

    Doug A. TrainBoard Supporter

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    Joe,

    Thanks for responding.

    1. Don't give up on "quiet Texas". :sneaky: This time next week I will be setting up a table full of N to selloff and will then have about an equal collection of N and Z, with almost all focus going forward being on Z. I know of at least two other *new* Z guyZ in the DFW area alone, and at least half dozen others that are currently "trending" in Z. And of course Stony Smith, a pioneer in Z-scale Shapeways/3D printing is here, actively Z-scaling, and giving presentations that lean greatly toward Z. I'm planning to have my layout up and running before the end of the year and hope to display it at a few shows over the course of the year so I think we can promote the scale pretty well here in the next few years and beyond. I'm also pondering throwing together some simple modules once the Atlas track becomes readily available so maybe I'll have a show presence even sooner than I think.

    2. That's a good segue to the "Atlas track factor." I think this announcement is huge for Z-scale. Atlas is a trusted name and generally (recent woes notwithstanding) known for availability of product. So being able to buy a solid performing, budget-friendly track line as a stock item is going to help things a lot, methinks. So I guess my point is--when evaluating production moving forward--there is a new X-factor involved, especially once their first turnout hits the shelves. The Atlas track was one of a few huge factors that made me go from "dipping my toes in the waterZ" to where I'll be next weekend....selling off my N-Scale and moving my primary modeling focus to Z.

    3. Weathered cars. I'm not sure why sales aren't good in Z. I know people in N that buy ONLY your weathered cars, and I'm tending to do the same in Z, although to be fair the matchup of my interests to what is available isn't matching up too well. Recent releases have, but I had just purchased BNSF and Golden West boxcars right before the weathered/graf sets were announced so I'm having to sell them, then find a way to part out the multi-packs. (Four of just about anything doesn't work well for my small layout as 4 identical cars just don't give enough variety in a train. This problem is not unique to MTL....AZL purchases are also slowed by this process.)

    The CN combo-door car is on my to-buy list so that one will find a way to me soon hopefully. Probably will also buy the POW-MIA car too. (budget has been a bit of an issue of late....see N-scale sales above....see AZL announcements/releases further above. Oh, and I got married and bought a house all in the last few months.) Waiting for more weathered releases of Railbox boxcars, any body style, any scheme....but admittedly a weathered/graffiti'd combo-door version is an instant buy. I do have one weath-graf'd Railbox car already. The recent two-pack is just too "out there" with the Solid Cold craziness. The other car is of interest, but again it's the problem of splitting them up without taking a beating trying to resale the second.

    4. Possible Schemes/Models. For fun, I'm gonna throw out a few ideas, mostly on existing tooling since it's obvious from the above statements that new tooling is gonna be a tough sell.
    • PS2 2-Bay Covered Hoppers: BNSF Swoosh, BN "3-Bar" Gray, BN Simple Scheme Green, ATSF Serif Santa Fe/various
    • Husky Stack: TTX 5-pack
    • Combo-Door Boxcar: Weathered Railbox
    • Modern Boxcar: (whichever is most appropriate for the scheme) BNSF Circle, BN Simple Scheme Green, Weathered/Faded CNW/ROCK, Stockton Terminal & Eastern, Weathered/Faded Corinth & Counce, NdeM, Galveston Wharves
    • 60ft Bulkhead Flat: BNSF Red/Brown, NOKL, MRL
    • 60ft Flat: BNSF Red/Brown, OTTX/TTX Yellow, HTTX/TTX Yellow. (I don't personally want the new TTX logo, but that's another option)
    • 60ft Flat: Modern Construction Equipment Loads
    • Passenger Cars: BN Business Train; Modern-ish Phase Amtrak Baggage Car (hint: AZL Superliner release pending)
    And, since--why not? Here are some tooling ideas.
    • Business Car: See BN Business Train above. Think Kato.
    • Solid end (and preferrably 52ft6in versus 50ft) gondolas, flat and corrugated. IMHO one of the most badly needed models in Z.
    • Evans and/or 4427 Covered Hoppers- I think the 4427's would be huge, lots of schemes to choose from, etc.
    • Bethgon Coalporters - AZL's releases are sporadic and expensive. Get the price point to $18-20 street per car...a $70-75 street Runner Pack (4) would be very appealing. Use your new coupler...close coupling...no need for magnetics. Follow Athearn's lead...they're finally doing a broader range of schemes. Consider that unit trains are appealing in Z....both you and AZL can keep churning these out as long as the tooling lasts and I doubt sales will be affected on either side.
    • Airslide Covered Hopper. Strike while the iron is hot...we're seeing the N version and drooling.
    • Generic tank car-maybe more like the old MDC N car than your 56ft car, but either should work as there just aren't many tank cars available in Z
    • 89ft Flat- Another needed piece
    • 5161cf Covered Hopper-this is actually personally my number one "most wanted" (narrowly edging out the gondolas) but it's also something I see AZL doing....kind of their m.o. But figured I'd mention it. Unit trains, BNSF, UP, CSX, et al
    • Ethanol or Crude Oil Cars - Unit trains, unit trains! Again, maybe AZL's bailey-wick, but a thought.
    Anyway, I'm sure nothing I've said is earth-shattering or changes MTL's mindset at the moment, but at least I wanted you to know there is some growth happening, some avenues for promoting the scale, and well....dangit....we care. (y)
     
  20. pitkin1

    pitkin1 TrainBoard Member

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    Joe,
    I first picked up Z scale in the mid-eighties when I bought a Marklin set from a hobby shop that was going out of business. Unfortunately, it was a short term affair as there were so few items to support the scale available. Last year, I started picking up Z again. In my mind, the MTL offerings are outstanding especially the structures. I searched off and on for a year for the sawmill and finally found one. It is on my bench now! The search for others continues.
    I understand the market drives production. After all it is a business intended to make money. If you are the main driver behind MTL's advancement in the scale, all I can say is thanks for your efforts regardless of future direction.
    I just bought a bunch of MTL track and my plan is to look at MTL first simply because I trust the name.
    Steve
     
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