Question Z Scale PCC Trolley

jshglass Dec 5, 2017

  1. Heay Equipment Designer

    Heay Equipment Designer TrainBoard Member

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    If you just want to go back and forth on a straight track, I would recommend magnets. As stated earlier in this thread, Loren has done it with road vehicles and there are systems out there you can buy. Lot of people are doing it with road vehicles in N scale. So there might be some good references in the N scale world.

    But I could see a really simple way to do it like with a long screw mounted right under the track. Screw is turned by a small dc motor. Magnet is pulled back and forth on the screw that pulls trolley with magnet in its carboy back and forth. Now you can have custom wheels turned to prototypical 26 inch diameter and not have to worry about any internal drivertrain or final drive clearance on the track. It would also allow you to have a fully detailed interior and sitting passengers.

    You could even buy a cheap used N scale transformer on ebay. 12 volt DC motor to power the rig and the transformer to control speed and direction. Since scale is not an issue because this rig is under your layout, you can buy gear reduction kits (and the DC motor) at "You do it Electronics" in Needham right off of Rt 128. That should give you enough power to move the rig back and forth. But as Tracktoo has stated, gear reduction will reduce speed. Screw thread count will also effect speed and how smooth the rig moves back and forth.

    -Jon

    IMG_018.jpg
     
    tracktoo likes this.
  2. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    I like it!:cool:

    And to take that further and maybe simpler, it might be done forward and reverse, slowing at each end then stopping and slowly starting on the return, all mechanical and with the motor just turned on, spinning one direction. This idea might be easier to execute with basic tools and available hardware, too.

    Set up a guide rod (no screw) and sliding block with a magnet attached directly below the track so it can magnetically link to the trolley. Then use a miniature drive chain (plastic miniature chains are available) with an extended link pin that serves to accept a connecting link/ rod. At the low speeds that the chain would be running it could be mounted vertically or horizontally although sprockets vertical are generally accepted as the better way to mount chains (for derailing purposes). A timing belt would work too but would need a way to attach the driving pin. And the chain could have a matched set of rods attaching to both sides of the link on an extended through pin to balance the load squarely on the chain. A sprung tensioner wheel might also be useful to smooth out operation.

    The operation would be as follows. Chain is driving the guide block magnet one direction. Reaching end of travel the trolley slows as the chain goes over the sprocket at the end of travel and then restarts in the opposite direction as the chain starts its return on the loop. The connecting rod takes care of the alignment. And in lieu of the connecting rod, a slot in the guided magnet block could be slotted to let the pin slide side to side as the mechanism rotates. That might be smoother as it doesn't side load the chain possibly causing some jerky motion. A good span between the guide rod alignment bearings could be very smooth running with very little play. Or something like that.o_O

    And with creative use of sprocket or pulleys this could be made to go around a corner, too.
     
  3. bostonjim

    bostonjim TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks, Jon, Tracktoo...It is good to know that there are alternatives for creating something for my purposes. I like that it would be low speed, jerky motion would not be bad (ride the real thing...) and prototypical wheels, passengers, it sounds too good to be true. I get the limitations to reducing the gears and all moving parts. Maybe nano technology will solve these problems. The technology just isn't here yet. As I looked at the Marklin 88166 it is similar in body style, door configuration, windows, etc...to a PCC. I assume it is the approximate size of a PCC. Can this motor/chassis be made to fit into a future PCC shell? The couplers don't need to be on. Most PCC's ran as single units. The 4 wheel running mechanism will certainly shoot down any expectations of realism, though. However, could false standard PCC trucks be made to disguise the non-typical running gear? Something that could attach to the undercarriage of the shell. 3-D printed truck profiles, dummy couplers and catenary can already be done. If it looked like it has prototypical trucks and ran on the 4 wheel chassis I wouldn't mind. It would solve some of the operating issues already brought up. Just a thought. Jim in Boston
     
  4. southernnscale

    southernnscale TrainBoard Supporter

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    I have all ready tried to design some gear here! as you said they wouldn't last. But they did print in FUD. I haven't tried them in metal yet! these are pretty small. the last attachment show the steel material the green is what can be printed and the off yellow needs to be thicker! So the gears would print!
    IMG_7182.JPG Gears.png 2.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
  5. Garth-H

    Garth-H TrainBoard Supporter

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    The 2MM society in the UK is where you can find information on making you own power chassis and where you can find matched sets of gear and worms powering you model and a variety of wheel sizes. In addition they have a great selection of manuals and other on line resources that are helpful to the craftsman builder. 2mm society deal with track gauges of 6.5 mm and 9 mm routinely plus others and have rail and track gauges and other tools and tool ideas. I was a member for almost 10 years during my peak scratch building period in Nn3
     
  6. bostonjim

    bostonjim TrainBoard Member

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    Thank you Garth. This is good to know. I am not skillful enough to build my own motor but I know there are others on this forum who can (yourself) tackle this problem. All the chatter about this topic is turning in a more positive direction. It does look like it can be done. It just hasn't been done yet. Jon and Tracktoo have come up with some good ideas. Ideas I can use for the "scene within a scene" for my city module. Several others are looking into building a PCC shell. All seems to center around the new "shorty" motors being delivered. Perhaps after they arrive we will have conclusive info about them and their compatibility with their designs. I will wait and see. Personally, I will be happy with a static PCC model and try the magnet method when that day arrives. Jim in Boston
     
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  7. mdvholland

    mdvholland TrainBoard Member

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    For those who might look for an easier approache of a trolley / tramway in Z scale, take a look at this. I shot this picture at a train trade fair Saturday. Spoke to the builder, Gerard from Belgium. He basically took a Railbus by Marklin, removed couplers, added a tramlike front, imitated the roof with simple parts (e,g. a etched pallet and shutters from a Kibri house kit), added routenumber and installed a Marklin pantograph on it. Painted in Antwerp tram colors. Fantasy, but nice fantasy, I think.
    Matt.

    Trammetje obv railbus 1.jpg
     
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  8. bostonjim

    bostonjim TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks, Matt. Thanks Gerard in Belguim.
    This is what I naively thought would be possible!!! A PCC shell would become available that would fit over an existing Marklin/MTL/AZL...and you would buy or build the remaining details, catenary pole, couplers, etc...It is turning out that the PCC design is a difficult one to get right. The curves in the front and rear are proving difficult in 3-D and polybak ....it is good to know there are folks out there trying. I support their efforts and look forward to the results. Jim in Boston
     
  9. southernnscale

    southernnscale TrainBoard Supporter

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    Here is the design PCC I did works with the PowerMax 6.5mm Need to connected two of them but still have movement. Tried the shorties but wheel base trucks to close together!
    IMG_7267.JPG IMG_7274.JPG
     
  10. jshglass

    jshglass TrainBoard Member

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    That is so cool! Did you print the shell with Shapeways?
     
  11. bostonjim

    bostonjim TrainBoard Member

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    They are pretty cool. I have 2 of them in the process of being painted. I'm still not sure how/if they will be operable. If they can only be static models I've already planned on adding 4 red fiber optic lights in the rear and one nano LED in the front as well as one inside the trolley and have it arriving at a stop with some people waiting to board. I have some modules that only have a couple of inches of street and sidewalk. One would be a good candidate for this vignette. Tracks in cobblestone streets always look good. I still would like to see if the chassis and motor from ANY Marklin engine/track cleaning car would work inside the shell. Does anybody know if it would? The width is 10mm. The distance between the center of each wheel well is 30mm, if this info helps. I have primed the inside of the PCC with 2 coats of primer, first w/ Tamiya grey and then spray can flat black. Any translucence is gone. The final coat inside is tan. The exterior is primed grey, waiting for the MTA "creamsicle" paint scheme. After the priming the model seems sturdier, not as tough as styrene but not too delicate either. Jim
     
  12. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    That is one I should be able to make a power truck for. Wheelbase could be correct but present wheels would be Z scale 33", not the proper 26" for a PCC. Meanwhile, the PowerMax has 43" wheels so it's not quite so bad. At a later time the wheels could probably be corrected but that's going to require a new gear set that is planned but no set date to produce. It will be the same construction approach but due to gears and shaft centerlines won't share any components except possibly the actual motor. Also the mechanism would project into the interior directly above the power truck. It wouldn't project in there nearly as far as the PowerMax but suspect all mechanisms that could even be considered will have this issue to some degree.

    Here's a video of one of the trucks I've been developing. It's been a several year effort, keeping me out of the bars and poolrooms in my retirement. No release date is set but it shouldn't be too much longer. While a truck for a Z scale PCC wouldn't be this exact prototype test truck it would be similar construction and the same performance. One of the bigger differences is this is a 5' wheelbase instead of 6' for a PCC but there are a few others, too. Some of you may have seen this. Enjoy.

     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  13. mdvholland

    mdvholland TrainBoard Member

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    Really lovely little bug!
     
  14. Heay Equipment Designer

    Heay Equipment Designer TrainBoard Member

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    What about a vertically mounted mounted motor in the center of the truck using a worm gear (like how Marklin does it on their 3 axle diesel switchers except their motor is offset due to 3 axles instead of just 2)? Then the motor is no longer an obstruction when articulating the truck. Only issue would be the length of the motor would dictate the height of the trolley/locomotive.
     
  15. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    That may have some applications but the truck as shown depends on multiple gear reduction to run an appropriate scale speed and is very key to the slow speed performance. There would be trouble getting that reduction in that small of a package with a vertical motor and the height would be very limiting. As that one is, it's 8.8mm off the rails. But rest assured that various configurations are already being considered including what you've asked about. This also has application in Nn3 and N and what's trouble in one plane in Z scale might not be with the additional room of N. Is it odd to be talking about N scale as being roomy?:)
     
  16. Heay Equipment Designer

    Heay Equipment Designer TrainBoard Member

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    Definitely keep us Z scale folks up to date with your results. I really like and appreciate your work. Very interested in vertical motor mounts. I agree height would be a limiting issue. But I'm interested in potential for use in larger locomotives. Also thinking about some larger Z scale MOW equipment.
     
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  17. southernnscale

    southernnscale TrainBoard Supporter

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    Yes! Shapeways is were I print all my models!
     
    jshglass likes this.
  18. southernnscale

    southernnscale TrainBoard Supporter

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    This is a shot with the powermax 6.5mm motor it fits fine in the shell just need two of them connected together so they would be free turning. the Shorties are just a little to wide and truck patern doesn't fit well! I posted this photo already Sorry!

    IMG_7274.JPG
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  19. tracktoo

    tracktoo TrainBoard Member

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    The PowerMax is pretty tiny, about as small as I'm aware of at present, but for a comparison of size this might help. Here is a picture with both units posed together showing the basic difference in height but also the wheel diameter difference.

    MTG vs Searails 001.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2018
  20. southernnscale

    southernnscale TrainBoard Supporter

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    So can this one be bought! The one smaller! then the powermax?
     

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