Eddie - Yep, learning a new job combined with a house-hold move is definitely going to limit your attention to other matters, but welcome back and hope you get a breather real soon. As for your question in re. towers, I can only answer as to what I observed back in the 50's and 60's. At that time, to the best of my knowledge the three remaining towers were: SY ACL/SOU, ACL manned, Town Creek SAL/ACL, not certain but I believe this was ACL manned. Bay Tower, SAL/SOU, painted in SAL colors, but during the 50's, unmanned. Somewhere I have a 1953 SOU t/t, that gives the proper sequence of button-pushing and resultant light sequence to cross at Bay Tower for Southern crews. SAL t/t's from the 1960's just show an "X-Southern". As for BN, I can promise that there was no tower there during the ACL years. According to the SCL t/t's I have, "BN" is rail south of Bennett yard and north of South Drayton. During the 60's I spent time on both sides of the Ashley and never saw signs of even a remnant on either side. However, I wonder if "BN" doesn't refer to the bridge itself? I know during the 60's that this bridge had at least a part-time bridge tender. The tender was a fine, elderly black gentleman and I seem to remember him telling me that the bridge did not have a full time tender. In any case, if SCRS or Buddy Hill read this, I'm certain they can give you details that I'm ignorant about.
Thanks Dave, I knew that I could count on you. I really appreciate the fine folks on trainboard like Mr. Dave. I think it is important for us to "preserve" our railroad heritage for future generations. So thanks to all who share. Eddie
Eddie - I'm glad that I could be of any help at all. Actually, it gives me great pleasure to talk about those days, they're almost as much fun to recount as they were to experience. And, I totally agree with you - with modelers and rail fans being "rara avis" in these parts, it is totally up to us and those of similiar minds and experience to put forth all the info we can.
You guys are getting my Seaboard juices flowing--maybe I should just drop the CSX part and backdate the whole layout to SAL. Regardless, I have been inspired to the point of joining the Atlantic Coast Line & Seaboard Air Line Railroads Historical Society. Looks like a great group and their modeling arm (SCL Modelers) is superb. Hope to have some green & cream pics coming soon. Jamie
Jamie - Glad to hear you're even thinking about joining the handful of us still stuck in the "dark" ages. Don't know how far along you are with the acquisition of engines, rolling stock, etc., but in N scale and with the space you have available you do have the option of doing both CSX and SAL (era swapping I think they call it). The South in general, and the small towns you'd be modelling in particular, don't (well didn't) change very much or fast. You could without very much effort model today's "rationalized" rail scene and, where todays CSX has a long stretch of what (is to me) barren trackage, you could have "inserts" so to speak (depots, towers, MOW structures), i.e. "texture" - that differentiates todays railroading from that of the past. It was only in the early to mid 80's that CSX really began to eliminate branches, building, line abandonments, etc. in their effort at what I believe is called "rationalization." That being said, I personally (and especially in HO scale) feel a lot more comfortable with mostly 40' and 50' box cars as opposed to 60, 70, even 80 foot plus freight cars. In N scale you're not that limited. And, to a large extent, everything is so standardized today. I do still watch trains today and one thing I've noticed is that there is so little variation one to another. We old heads can testify that in the 50's, 60's, and 70's every freight was an unknown factor. Almost every train I see on todays CSX has a "lot" of CSXT cars normally with a string of St. Marys' box cars somewhere in the consist. And that is reasonable when you consider that 100 or so Class 1 railroads existed until the late 50's, early 60's as compared to todays "Super Seven". Well, I do seem to have rambled on here, but as I said earlier - you do have the scale, the space, and the age to do just about as you please.
Larry - Agree 100% with your comments on modeling the modern rail scene. Eddie - not sure if I have any photos of SY handy, but I do have the blueprints. Contact me off list and I can arrange to make copies for you. Regarding BN, Larry is correct the tower was long gone by the SCL days. I recall seeing an ACL memo indicating the tower was razed by the late 40s/early 50s. The tower was located near the Dorchester Road overpass (crossed the ACL at grade in the good old days). The tower was reported to be a standard ACL wood tower. No known photos exist of this tower. The concrete foundation of the tower is (was?) visible from the Dorchester Rd/I-526 overpasses. Revisiting Ashley Jct and SY tower - prior to the mid 20s the ACL operated two towers Ashley Jct Tower governed the "Charleston" leg of the wye; North Wye Tower governed the "Florence" leg of the wye. The ACL needed a third tower at the "Savannah" leg of the wye as well as the Southern crossing. If the ACL had constructed a standard mechanical interlocking it would have meant three towers located within 0.5 mile of each other - each tower having three "tricks" of employees - hardly cost effective. The ACL and US&S Co. designed an electro-pneumatic system/tower which consolidated interlocking operations in a single tower - SY. One final tidbit regarding the wye at Ashley Jct. - recall seeing an ACL blueprint for a proposed roundhouse/turntable/shop complex to be located within the legs of the wye. Hope all this helped. Buddy
Buddy - Thanks for the additional info on BN tower. I mostly approached ACL's Ashley River bridge from the West Ashley side. On the N. Charleston side, I seem to remember having to go somewhat north of the Dorchester overpass and work my way back south and westerly - 45 years ago, ain't that clear. I figured either you or Larry could add some good info to the little I had available (and that only from memory). As an aside, the Athearn 3-bay wood chip hoppers arrived this week. If you model either ACL or SOU in HO, I can only say - get 'em while they're available. They're beautiful! Scale size grab irons, slope sheet braces, and great paint jobs. I can't swear that they exactly match actual ACL/SOU cars, but they're close to a lot of them that I remember both roads having. Hopefully Athearn will re-do their ex-MDC offset side triple hoppers and offer them in Seaboard's 37000 series.
Well, I have officially taken the plunge: http://seaboard1966.blogspot.com/ Going to the upstate to do a bit of recon photography this weekend (and to see the old stomping grounds). Jamie
Jamie - Well I guess I knew earlier since I've been following your well presented and illustrated thread. Your work ought to really boost readership on the ACL/SAL forum on TrainBoard. Now I feel sort of regretful that I didn't do more with N scale. After looking week after week at those Atlas GP-9's, 30's, and mint green E's by P2K - and being very tempted, I didn't! However, I really can't complain about the variety of southern road names and models available in HO. And, I really did like the way SAL handled their motive power which was quite different from their two competitors. Now I can duplicate that on my layout tho' the darned trains are too short. But, anyway you're covering the Piedmont, I'm doing my best on the southern half of the "EC" - anyone for the sand hills line - Hamlet, Columbia, Savannah?
Rereading this thread reminded me of an incident that happened to a buddy of mine and myself when I guess we were 12 - 13 years old. One of my good friends in grade and what they now call "middle" school was named Billy. Billy was one of those big, guess you could call country boys that "wasn't scared of nothing." He proved it a couple of times with poisonous snakes, but that's another story. The route we used to visit each other was up and down ACL's Croghans branch. He walking west the two or so miles to my house and me walking east, we both lived in houses right up against the rail line. Well, one fine Saturday afternoon with Billy visiting me, we decided to walk further west down the Croghans branch, turn left on the Seaboard and see if we could walk across the First, or north Stono bridge over to Johns Island, turn around and come back to my house. We left shortly after lunch and a 30 - 40 minute walk brought us to the Seaboard bridge which was manned. The bridge tender was a portly, jolly seeming gentleman who said of course we could walk across the bridge and no trains were scheduled for several hours so nothing to worry about there. Approaching the middle of the span we heard behind us an air horn blast that came real close to giving me an out-of-body experience. Both of us spinning around at the same time to face doom, we saw the bridge tender outside his house bent over double laughing. Looking at my friend Billy, I saw that he had turned, probably like myself, a much lighter shade of beige. That put an end to our thoughts of putting foot on Johns Island. Returning whence we came, we realized the joke was on us and we started laughing while approaching the tender who was still bent over from laughter. After another five or so minutes of all three of us enjoying the "joke" the tender said "boys I guess it's good that all three of us are wearing dark pants, me from laughing, and you all - well I just didn't think either of you would jump that high."
Dave, Buddy and Jamie well, as a side note I finally have begun my N scale S.C.L. of the Charleston sd - I received a 12ft x 24ft custom built shed for my Birthday and so far it is wired and I am in the process of insulating it. A fellow train dispatcher and friend Vic Lewis is assisting me in getting the plans for it on paper. Sorry that I haven't been very active here as of late we have an 8 week curfew going on the South End subdivision and by the time I get home I am drained. Anyhow thought I would catch up with you good folks. Jamie, I like what you are doing with the new SAL theme. Buddy thanks for the offer I sent you a p-m and Dave hope you are doing well. Will catch up with yall in a few days. Eddie
Eddie, Looking forward to your update. I have been stalled for the last month between kids soccer and work so I know what you mean. Someone could have taken all the stuff out of my layout room a month ago and I would not know it. Jamie
Eddie - Good to hear from you and the news that the Charleston sd of the SCL is underway. Have you decided on which period to model, the "mix-master" period of the first 4 or 5 years or the solid black SCL. You probably have the latitude like Jamie - to do both. Jamie - Also good to hear from you. I've been following your research on your chosen line, very thorough and professional, I'm impressed. Not much to report on my fictional third of a mile of the old EC. There's still an electrical glitch which while it doesn't really affect operation, it's still a pain. Then there are the 3 or 4 places in the trackwork where I really should have paid more attention. Since trackwork and the electrical end of layout building are my least favorite, perhaps tomorrow? Meanwhile the two new projects of installing all metal wheels, all Kadee couplers, and that (several bad words here) backdrop continue. Oh yeah, and accumulating funds for the new F-3's and Centipedes. OK, I know the Centipedes were rare north of Jacksonville, but it's my railroad and it suffers a perennial traffic surge and power shortage.
Hello All, Dave, you are right on target - I plan on having ACL / SAL power along with the "split image" SCL scheme also the black/yellow SCL into the Family Lines and even a few Seaboard System. i.e., 1967 until 1985. I also have Clinchfield and L&N power. ACL/ SAL, SCL and Family Lines Cabs as well. I am not planning on any Seaboard System rolling stock at this time because I feel that if I go that far that I might want to then get into the CSX. Much like Jamie and at this point I must give him great props for if it weren't for him I would not be undertaking this project, there are certain areas that I am looking to model. All of the east or south end of Florence yard scratch building the engine house (again, first was destroyed in move) along with the old RA tower, Dispatchers office(FC) and the ACL passenger station. My next scene will be South Florence, this is a gotta have it. South Florence is where my dad would take me to watch the fast freights and Amtrak trains when I was just a kid,which at the time was double crossovers and a small lumber mill off of no1 tk. south to Java (end of double track). Then single track crossing over Lynches River which by the way the deck plate bridge to this day is still marked ACL rr which I have a model of all ready to go painted and slightly weathered. Thus bringing us into New Hope double track into Coward. The town of Lake City was a passenger stop and I would like to include it as well as Kingstree. North Lane, Lane and Santee Bluff are a definate due to the oddity of the track alignment North Lane is a Straight away move from single main to the no. 2tk , double Crossovers at Lane and then a diverging move from no. 2tk to single main (hope you could follow that). Santee swamp then down to Etta all double track and off course the Pinopolis coal plant which due to space will take a bit of modelers license here (sorry) and then on through Monks Corner , Goose Creek , Hannahan, Meads, North Charleston to Sy tower and ending at Bennett Yard. I am thinking with the plans drawn so far that I will be able to get a good "feel" of this section of the Charleston sd. The plan so far consist of two levels around the walls with a center peninsular much like Jamies design. The space to be filled is a 12' x 24' shed with the door on the right hand side of 12 wall. So as a visual walking into the room the helix will be immediately to the left right above the a/c unit. The top level on the right hand side of the wall will be Florence yard working its way around the peninsular which will have a scene divider down the middle and following on around to the helix. Prior to reaching the helix will be Santee Bluff leading into the Santee swamp and when exiting onto the bottom tier will exit as Santee swamp and then double track at Etta if things go as planned the layout will follow back around and Bennett yard will sit directly below Florence yard on the bottom tier. Yes this will be in essence a point-to-point layout but that is just fine with me there will be plenty of industries to switch along the way for local freights and enough mainline for passenger, piggy back trains and of course the "Juice train". So there you go that is where I am right now. The building is up the paint is applied, wired and I am now in the process of insulating and hanging walls and with a little bit of luck and cooler weather I will be laying track before Christmas. Sorry for being so long winded but I get excited just thinking about this project. Any ideas or questions lets hear it. I forgot to mention this will be an N scale layout. Eddie
Eddie - You have a great project. This'll be a multi-year project. It sounds as though you'll cover all of the major points Florence - Charleston. And, don't apologize for using "modeller's license," if that's wrong, I'd spend a lifetime apologizing. If you want a little advice - and do not ask me how I know this, is; a. Paint the walls a shade of sky you find acceptable - better yet, ask your wife. b. Staging, staging, staging. Hidden, but accessible if you can make it so, if not, then out in the open. While I rode the trains through this area 40+ years ago I did very few road trips up that way. I do seem to remember a lot of places where the highway paralled the tracks for some distance through those piney woods. In any case, keep us informed either on this or a new thread.
Reading in the local papers (somewhat belatedly) that there is a movement afoot for a harbor preservation effort the center-piece of which would be the old, derelict Southern Rwy. coaling pier. The photo shows the pilings in the Cooper, but the head of the pier appears to be still intact. In the same article was the fact that Southern deeded both the coal pier and the banana terminal to the State Ports Authority back in the 1950's. That would explain why only the Souterhn served the banana terminal.
Reading in the local papers (somewhat belatedly) that there is a movement afoot for a harbor preservation effort the center-piece of which would be the old, derelict Southern Rwy. coaling pier. The photo shows the pilings in the Cooper, but the head of the pier appears to be still intact. In the same article was the fact that Southern deeded both the coal pier and the banana terminal to the State Ports Authority back in the 1950's. That would explain why only the Southern served the banana terminal.
ACL NORTH STATION MEMORIES 24 DECEMBER 2009 CHRISTMAS EVE 2009 During the WW II years, I was fortunate to be able to make two train trips which begin and ended at the ACL's Charleston North Station. One of these trips was with my family. The other was with my older sister and brother - just the three of us. Both of these trips were to Griffin, Georgia via Savannah, Georgia. We took the ACL to Savannah, where we changed trains and stations. There we took the C of G to Griffin. Wow! What trips they were. The memories are still clear and good to pass on. As for now, everybody have a Merry Christmas and remember Jesus is the reason we have Christmas. Larry @ SCRS.
Larry - Welcome back. I also have fond memories of the ACL's service between Charleston and Points North, including a ride on the second section of the Florida Special at just this time of year in - if I remember correctly, 1964. Unfortunately, with ACL as with SAL, never traversed the rails south of Charleston. Which is unfortunate, especially with #25 - the southbound Boll Weevil. Nope, it was always on and off at Wappoo Road, and the Grove St. station. And to you and other readers - Merry Christmas and Happy Hannukah. And to those who say Happy Holidays - pray seek the derivation of "Holidays."
“All aboard” 29 January 2010. I still remember the conductor calling out those words. “All aboard”. Calling for people to get on the train at the ACL's North Station. This was a big day for me as it would be my first ride on a train. I was taking in everything that day about our family’s summer trip. We were on the platform when the train had arrived and to see those big, purple and silver colored engines up close as they passed by was an exciting time. It was in the summer of 1943, when we made the trip. Even though I was now six years old, my mom kept telling me to hold her hand, so I would not get lost among all the people on the platform. It was war time. Many people, in addition to the large number of military personnel were on the platform waiting to get on board as the last of many passengers stepped down off the train. There were a lot of people also on the platform bidding farewell to those who were leaving and others greeting others that just arrived. I heard someone saying in a loud voice something like ‘all arriving military over here’… . After my dad showed our tickets to the man at the passenger car steps, we climbed up those steps and made our way into the car. We found four seats together that faced together and took them. There were only five in my family then. My parents, my (then only) sister, my brother and myself. My sister, brother and I shared the same seat. School was out for the summer and my parents wanted to visit their parents in Griffin and Thomaston, Georgia. My dad preferred to use the family auto for the trip, however for a number of good reason decided to ‘go by train’. This rail trip came about simply because (1) gasoline was rationed and coupons had to be used to be able to purchase the fuel. The coupons were allocated and they were in short supply. (2) Tires for private autos were almost impossible to purchase and the tires on the family auto would have to last until… .(3) My dad did not like to drive at night with – the top half of the head lights painted out (black paint to help prevent aircraft spotting vehicles moving on the ground). . Public transportation was the best way to go. Being six (6) years old, I was not in on the trip planning and was told that were taking the train to go and see our grandparents. Well. Going to see my grandparents was great, but for me riding the train there and back would be the same as having Santa Clause come a second time that year. In time all the people that were getting on the train were now on board and the train began to move. I wanted to see what was happening outside and dad let me stand at the window. We were on the right side of the car and I could see the engines at the front of the train going around a curve (SY Wye), and later some tracks (Southern double tracks) and hear and feel the wheels crossing over those same tracks. As I looked back, I could see the end of the train still coming around the curve. After crossing those double tracks, I saw some old buildings on the right (these were the old refrigerator car icing buildings) and then a lot of trees. After a while, we crossed over a dirt road crossing (Dorchester Road) and later a river. Dad told us that the river was the Ashley River and that the bridge and trestle the train was on, was the railroad bridge we had seen when we had been fishing in his boat. After the train crossed the river, there were more woods. Trees were not very interesting to me and I set down. I then just sort of watched other passengers until my brother called out something like ‘Hey look’! We are crossing another river (Stono River). In the course of the train ride to Savannah, I remember stopping at two stations. One was maybe Ravenel as it seemed to be not long after we crossed the second river. The other was Yemassee. At Yemassee, more military personnel were at that station waiting to board and others were getting off. There were some families that were at the station. About sundown, the train crossed another river which dad said was the Savannah River and that we were then in Georgia. Sometime later the train slowed down, then begin to move through a lot of tracks. I could hear the wheels squealing as they crossed over other tracks. The train stopped and then began to back up. The train backed into the Atlantic Coast Line Station. Our family got off the train here and we walked into the large waiting room. Note: I remember the station very well as this was the first of four times being in the station. My sister, brother and my self made this same trip again in 1945 – just the three of us. The waiting room had large round radiators in it – big enough for a boy to climb on. Dad and mom said we had to change trains here in Savannah and go to another station (Central of Georgia). Dad checked with a man at a window (ticket agent) to find out more about where the station was located and what time our train left there. The man told him it was near and that we could walk there. This we did. We took our bags and off we went out the front door, turned right and walked about four or five blocks to the other station. I remember it being dark as we walked between the two stations. When we reached the station, we went in, took some seats while dad again checked with a man at a window (ticket agent again). We were going to have to wait a few hours for the next train and we settled down in the waiting room and waited. After exploring around the station in the areas that we could go into, I remember lying down on a bench and going to sleep. When my sister woke me up, it was time to leave. I am not sure what the time was when we boarded the train, however as we left the waiting room, I could tell that it was still dark outside. We had been traveling quite a while before it was daylight. It was then, I could see the engine. It was a steam engine. After daylight, I spent most of the time looking out the windows on both sides of the car. The train stopped a number of times at stations and what seemed like a long time of riding to a boy of six, the train slowed and crossed a long river bridge. My dad said that the river was the Ocmulgee and we were at Macon, Georgia. After crossing the river, the train turned off the main track and moved down into the city and later stopped at a very large station (Macon Union Station). While we were there, I could feel the train move (other cars being added on for the run to Atlanta). In time we were on our way again. It was late in the morning when our train stopped at the Griffin station. As we left the train, some of our relatives met us on the platform. A number of other people also left the train and others were waiting to get on. I/m not sure just how long we were in the cities of Griffin and Thomaston before returning to Charleston. On the return trip, our train reached Savannah late in the day. Again we walked back to the ACL station where we waited a number of hours for our train to Charleston. The ACL station was much larger than the Central of Georgia’s station and offered a lot of exploring for a couple of young boys.. While walking around the station with my brother, we looked into a large front room that had the door open and the lights were out. As our eyes adjusted, we saw many soldiers who were sleeping on the floor. The room was full of soldiers getting rest where they could. In time our exploring was over and I was ready to get some sleep also. My parents and my sister had seats, however my brother and I had been sitting on our suitcases. The waiting room was full of people and all the benches were taken. No place to lie down. I asked my parents if I could lie down on the top of one of the large radiators and get some sleep. Dad checked It out I did get up there for a while. After about twenty minutes, I was back down. It was not comfortable. When our train did come into the station, most of the people in the waiting room lined up at the gate to take the same train. The soldiers that were in the room sleeping, were still there when we left and got on the train. It was good to get on the train. Not long after I was in my seat, I was asleep. It was daylight when we reached the North Station. Our summer trip was over. Note: The next summer (1944), my sister, brother and I made the same trip by ourselves. Railroad people checked on us regular and even walked with us between the stations in Savannah. It also was a great trip for a boy of seven. Memories now sixty six years old. Larry @ SCRS.
