I wanted to start a new thread where we could express our thoughts without taking away from the good deeds and good times had by people attending the NSE (C) Convention in Medford. People attend these events for many reasons, but I think the biggest reason is to see the people that we enjoy sharing N-Scale with, and meeting old friends, and making new ones. Conventions and train shows require a lot of effort by a lot of people. People that are volunteering to spend lots of time behind the scenes organizing meetings, layouts, schedules, space and most of all people. People that may or may not have the same definition of what organized is. Lots of people also have their own agendas that may not line up with what is needed to have a successful show. The successful shows and conventions that stand out in our memories came about because the people that volunteered to do the work did a great job. I think organizational skill and passion are the key ingredients. The guys from KSONS did a phenomenal job to set a very high standard of success. I wasn't at Chantilly, but from everything I heard, this too, ranks as one of the best. I have been involved with the layout part of shows and conventions many times over the last 18 years with Mt Rainier N-Scale. We've set up our layout at countless annual shows and several major conventions and I have had the opportunity to help co-ordinate layouts at several major conventions. It can be a B%$ch sometimes, but the results are always the same. It was hard work, but in the end, people were glad we came, we had fun, and the show was a success. I got to meet people in N-Scale that inspire me, that I admire, and I hope people enjoyed meeting me, and seeing my contribution to the hobby of N-Scale model railroading. BUT I digress. I think Russell hit the nail on the head with reply #85 in the Medford Convention thread. Other good points were made as well. I share in the frustration with many that posted, that we may not be represented well by the organizations that exist to "Represent" N-Scale Model Railroading. Let's look at the NMRA. I'm a member. I enjoy the conventions and meets. There has been cases of certain NMRA representatives not treating N-Scale with the respect that we think it deserves. I often hear stories of the bad treatment that N-Scalers received at some convention or regional meet. I think that is changing. My feeling is that N-Scalers are represented in about the same percentage as is the market share. If you don't see a lot of N at regional and divisional meets, bring some N next time, and stop calling them Horribly Oversized. They have some cool trains, too. It shouldn't be an us vs. them. Our PNW Regional President is an N-Scaler. OK how about N Trak. Gotta thank Jim Fitzgerald and some of the others for carrying the ball for at least a good portion of the last 30 years. Lotsa good things came out of N Trak. How many N-Scalers have used N Trak as a stepping stone to other things? Who doesn't like a GOOD Ntrak module. There are some great ones. Yes N-Trak modeling has it's downside, It's not for everyone, but what is? It's too bad that the organization has sort of fallen by the wayside, but they don't really represent the majority of N-Scalers either. Brings us to NSE(C). I put the C in there because until they change their board, they are all about the C. (as an organization). There are several good people in the control tower, but they have an agenda. They are the wagon masters now, whether we like it or not. They gots money, they gots organization, they gots the N-Scale stuff. It's all about the 365 Days Of The Year Collection In Blue. It must work, They have our attention. Yes, it too doesn't best represent the majority of N-Scalers. But how many of you have at least your home state car? So they do put on a gathering each year, in some cool places, and many of us enjoy the part we get out of it. YES, but the organization doesn't pay enough attention to the operators of layouts, PERIOD. On a side note, Mt Rainier N-Scale was asked to set up at an early convention that was held in Tacoma. Forget the year, 96, 98, whatever, early in their existence. When it was brought up at our monthly meeting, our then President and charter member, Winton Hazelton, who was a member of NSC, said in his booming voice, "Those people don't give a s**t about no *** damn layout !" That echos in my head every time the topic goes to NSC and bad layout experiences. Just thought I'd share that. So until we can get them to give a s**t about layouts, or we get some people like the group at KSONS to take over the planet and use the huge layout mind meld, we get exactly what we got, a group of people that are more concerned with patting each other on the back because they got the brightest colored special run and got big bucks at the auction for a $9.99 40 ft boxcar. Here's some food for thought. My idea, you heard it here first. A NEW N SCALE ORGANIZATION !!! Yes, an INTERNATIONAL N-Scale group! Everyone is treated equal. Box Openers to Scratch Builders. N-Trak, oNe Trak, BeNd Trak, FremoN, omNi-Trak, Home Layouts, Hollow Core, Hand Laid, Kato Tracked, Around the Wall Shelf, Basement Sized, Spaghetti Bowls,Time Savers,Roundy Round, Islands, Peninsulas, Christmas Trees, Dioramas and Armchair! Collectors, Accumulators, Hoarders,Talkers, Doers, Prototype, Freelanced, Modern, Transition and Steam Only, 18th Century, Passenger, Freight, Trolley, Urban, Interurban, Industrial, Electric, High Speed, Cog, and Critters. Nit Pickers, Know It Alls, Artists, Scientist, Techies, PC, Mac, DC, DCC, Battery, Low Pro, Pizza Cutters,Plastic, Metal, Code 35, 40, 55, 70,and 80. UP, SP, CP and AARP, Plus everyone else. Conventions in your town every year, with manufacturers and lots of door prize drawings. But no Z Scalers. Those guys are just weird. That's not model railroading, Its too small to see, and it doesn't run very well. They don't even make a Q-1 in that scale! Did I miss any one? Thoughts, Suggestions? I'm not going to join, because I would never join any organization that would accept a guy like me as a member! Thanks for humoring me, I had to get that off my chest. I'm going to sleep now, the 32oz Mt Dew I had wore off. Jim Younkins is coming over in the morning and we're going to slap together some oNe-Trak Modules for the show in ILWACO, WA. next week. Clamshell Railroad Days at the Columbia Pacific Museum just minutes from the Pacific Ocean. Hope to see you all there. I'll take pictures. It's not a Chantilly, Louisville or Medford, but it's only an hour and a half away, on the Washington Riviara. The sun might even be out.:wink:
Wow, and are you sure you will not serve if elected? I personally do not make a good leader. I have always been a gopher, a minion, a foot soldier, a hit man. Add to that a loafer and a buck passer. Wally from Dilbert is my hero. Anyway, I will stand by and see if a brand new organization comes out of this.
Bah! Once again, T-Trak is snubbed. Nary a mention in the long list of N-Scalers. And don't try to add insult to injury by claiming we are the "Roundy rounders". We're splitting off from your organization to become the Peoples Front of N-Scale (or was that the N-Scale People's Front?).
Amen Greg ! ! I would take exception to the " and organizations representing N-scale " part of your tiltle. I and I think that Russell Straw would agree that the Chantilly experience was nothing but fabulous in all aspects. It was great "advertising" of our hobby to the public and it provided new acquaintances for exhibitors and vendors. Many beautiful modules from all over the world. A lot of work done by many in order to showcase our hobby. Then there is the annual Oklahoma City show. Russ and I have attended several of these and I have nothing but praise for the people that put on the show and specially the OK City N-scale club for the work they do in "working" the show and putting out a fantastic N-scale layout each year. I am biased as I won "Best of Show" with an N-scale module in 2002. In addition, I have been a member of the New Mexico RailRunners for several years. It would be extremely difficult to exceed or even match the quality of their modules and layouts. I have set up with them in Albuquerque, Denver, Phoenix, Tucson, Tucumcarri, OK City, and El Paso. Finest representation of N-scale you could ask for. Also the Tucson N-scale club is a real asset to N-scale. I have set up with them many times and felt honored that they would allow me in. A great bunch of guys and ladies that have nothing but love for the hobby and the desire to share it with all. Have to mention alll of the hard work done by the builders of the modules, be them Ntrak, BendTrak, T Trak or whatever trak. A lot of great work to showcase the hobby. I tend to agree with you regarding certain groups that you mentioned. I just want to say that there are many organizations that represent N-scale very well.
Probably the greatest ambassador of N scale has long been NTrak. I would believe with T-Trak currently rapidly expanding, between those two, an (N) gathering now with both would give more than a great showing to the general public. Anything beyond these, (oNeTrak, BendTrack, Free-Mo N or?), would be a wonderful bonus.
Greg, too funny, on more levels that I can take in... I think I'll go down some Dew before responding.... Otto K.
Greg, some interesting points. First, may I ask that you put a few blank lines in between paragraphs; it would make reading a lot easier. I think there some existing realities that need to be considered here... First, this and other internet based forums have taken the place of in-person social groups, for those that wish to participate. That's not perfect-- for one thing, I am completely weary of "this vs. that" wars and preaching (or worse) about how You Are Not A Real Model Railroader Unless You (fill in the blank here). But on balance, I think forums are a good thing, and there are enough of them out there that one can self-select one or more based on their "personalities." Second, whether there is another group that somehow forms out of this thread, it will be subject to the current economic situation. I've run the numbers and it would cost me at least $1000 and a week of vacation to attend nearly any gathering, period. I have to make other choices about how to spend that time and money right now. I'm sure I'm not alone. There are less expensive gatherings I could attend, but the timing is always bad (for example, N Scale Weekend or my daughter's birthday?). Third... and I have to say this... I've never known any group that is immune from politics and personal agendas. The trick is to minimize their impact, and that's not easy.
I believe this pretty well explains the why of internet forum popularity today- The time and money to physically attend a gathering leaves a lot of folks essentially outside the process, only able to wish they could be there. But there is a big plus in the number of people, from many diverse similar interests around the world, with whom we can interact such as here. Information, ideas and just plain socializing we'd otherwise have never experienced.
Only ONE major problem with the concept.... You would NEVER get any TWO in that group to agree on anything...LMFAO !!! Everyone has a personal agenda...whether they will admit to it or not
Some valid points were brought out in these comments both for and against; but in this day I don't see anything positive happening from it.
Greg, Back in the early 1990's, after the 1991 Ntrak Convention in Louisville, there was an effort to reform Ntrak into a "regional" format somewhat like the NMRA and try to take the load off of Jim. This worked for several years and for some reason after about five or six years, it fell apart with most of the load going back to Jim. Yes, we do NEED a new organization to represent ALL facets of N scale. After my experience with NSC er E at Portland, they are definitely NOT the group (despite their self crowing and patting themselves on their backs) to represent us. Yes, there are some great people in "management" positions within that group BUT there are still those who only want to collect and regard us operators and layout providers as simply the entertainment. Speaking of Portland, Greg and the rest of the local planning crew did an incredible job for that convention and after the "war stories" about dealing with the NSC er E National Convention Committee, I'm surprised that any local club would want the pain and grief of working with them! Allen Evans Federal Way, WA
I sincerely hope you are joking, here, because if not, it's a misplaced slam. Remember Sacremento? The Z scale groups overwhelmingly stole the show in terms of modular layout presentation. And they did it yet again in Medford. Plus, the trains ran smoothly and reliably. Please explain why Z scale is not model railroading... I'd love to hear this...! The "too small to see" joke is so old (and so wrong) it should be banned. Tell me, hold up your thumb about three feet from your nose. Can you see it? Then you can see a Z scale locomotive. In fact, one of the nicer things about Z scale is that rivet counters can't annoy you, because we really don't even need to include them. Now Z scale rivets are perhaps too small to see, but just think: a lot of guys older than dirt are doing some phenomenal work in Z scale. Based on some of the attitudes on display here and there, N scalers treat Z scalers just like HO guys treated N scalers for so long. Must we have a pecking order? And there may not be a Q-1 in Z, but we have a cab forward. So it can't be all that bad. Why do we need to have a scale-specific model railroad organization at all? Every scale has its advantages; everyone can learn from one another; and we all have the same thing in common: trains. Personally, I think the NMRA just needs the "top floors" cleaned out and reorganized to function better, and we'd have just what everyone needs.
Dave, I agree with most of what you're saying. Out here in the PNW, a lot of the N scalers ARE also Z scalers! When I first moved here in 2004, there was a Z scale modular club that had a great layout but unfortunately several members moved away and the club is rather dormant at present. Personally, I enjoy just about any scale. I've modeled 1:1 scale (try that in your basement), collected American Flyer S Guage, and have been an N scale modeler since the late 1960's. Nothing gets me madder than to hear someone put down a scale just because that's not the scale they're in, that's NOT the purpose of our hobby and to someone outside of it, it just gives a bad impression.
What he said !!! There was lots of tongue in cheek, and certainly some foot in mouth ! I'm not meaning to slight anyone. I am completely enamored with model trains of all scales, I just happen to have an N-Trak club let me in, so I concentrate on N. I was stimulated, not only by a large caffeinated soft drink, but by a shared frustration with an organization that didn't even acknowledge a group that took it upon them selves to help promote the organization's cause, AGAIN !!! Allen's mention of the war stories at Portland, Russell, at Houston, Denver, some behind the scenes at Derby City ,etc. Could it be that simply by layout group members registering for the conventions, a lot of the disconnect could be avoided? Their logo proudly states "National N-Scale Convention". I looked up Convention. (A gathering of members or delegates) So if I'm not a member OR a delegate??? Sorry about the T-Trak thing, too. I knew I would miss somebody. I'm for anything that gets people running trains and having fun. I just would like to see a little better leadership in the N-Scale community. I know we can do it, I've seen it done many times. Time is cleaning out lots of floors, so there's hope from the NMRA, as long as we can infiltrate the organization with Young N-Scalers, but that's a whole 'nother topic for another tread. Hey, Thanks for the vote of confidence, Russell, but I've just been sent to this planet on a peaceful mission. I'd get run over in the board meeting. I think I'm going to concentrate on getting younger people into N-Scale, and get them to join the NMRA.
Personally I think a new organization is exactly what we do not need. It is bad enough with Ntrak and the NSC battling each other and let me throw Ttrak in there also. I rather like the concept which I first experienced in Bedford, PA and which is now being replicated in Columbus, OH. That is the concept of an N Scale Weekend. One weekend dedicated to N scale. Different clubs set up their own modular layouts [usually 10-12 layouts] with provisions for those who attend without their club to incorporate their module into a club layout. This allows Ntrak, T-trak, Bend-trak, One-trak and all others to set up beside one another and do their own thing while fostering comraderie. Yes, the majority of layouts will probably be Ntrak layouts but not all of them. There are some nice non Ntrak modular layouts out there like the Bedford N scale group whose modular layout that can be set up in different configurations. In any event the layouts are the show. There are some venders present also. The concept maybe done elsewhere but I only know of Bedford and Columbus. Columbus holds their event in May. On August 24,25 & 26 Bedford will host its 8th show. So if anyone is in the area do come and experience it. This type of get together avoids all of the problems of the really big convention type shows. Smaller, more easily managed, friendlier, and with multiple layouts more people running trains which I guess is really the bottom line. Lots of public exposure for N Scale which can translate into more people joining us and there is nothing wrong with growing the N scale market segment.
FWIW, the NMRA is best positioned for a inclusive international organization. We are all model railroaders first which model to different degrees in one or multiple scales. Anybody should be able to go to an NMRA convention regardless of what scale they model and come back home fully energized. A model railroader should be able to take any clinic or layout and apply the ideas to their situation. As to the "anything but HO bias", its there but in a lessening amount as new people join. Don't sit on the sidelines and complain, participate! I've seen N contest models go head to head with HO and O and win. For a lot of non-N folks just think N is only N-trak but as we know it is much more than that. Even the Z scale modeling being done today will turn a lot of heads. Advances in photo-etching, 3D printing, resin casting, and laser cutting are much more cost-effective in the small scales, so I think we can keep things interesting even though our tools are maybe different. Time does change things. I was a member of an HO club that its layout was more for railfan operations. Most of the younger members wanted to modify it to allow for more operations. Sure , there was the "old heads" who made it difficult but eventually change won them over. Today, the club is totally replacing the old layout with a new operational-based one. At the latest NSE event, I heard more than once that the old "C" part is dead as the majority of the interests is now on running. Sure the special run sales were brisk, but I know that a lot of those will be ran. There was a lot more action in the $10 car range than the $50-100+ range in the overall sales. Buildings, detail parts, DCC equipment was being sold just as fast as the "collector" stuff. There were a few insane ending prices in the auction, but far more great deals gotten. The "E" change was to attract a wider base (may have had some effect in the current memebership numbers), even their magazine has very few collector articles any more and much more modeling ones. As members involve themselves more into volunteering to help then these current conflicts will reduce. Peter
You're joking, right? The thing about Z-scalers is that while we here in the N-scale world are getting all butt-hurt about feeling snubbed by someone here or forgotten by someone there the Z-scalers are doing some great kitbash and scratch-built work and running some trains and having fun. Assuming you are joking, we as N-scalers still seem to have a lot more whining/per scale track mile than a lot of the other scales. How many times have you gone to the N scale forum here and seen a bunch of topics complaining that manufacturer X hasn't produced product Y in N scale, but they did it in HO scale? How many times have you had people play that little game about whose module standard is superior? How many times have you seen someone get totally bent out of shape that they got some model and it didn't have one little grab-iron they thought it should have had? How many complaint threads have we had that Model Railroader or whatever "didn't run enough N scale content" in the last issue, as if anything presented not exactly in one's chosen scale is totally worthless? I am much more likely to go to a general train show than an N scale specific one simply because with multiple scale presented there's a lot less of this sort of provincialism and a lot less scale-centered complaining so I can just go look at trains and talk about trains and play with trains and do the fun stuff. As for NSC, I pretty much decided I didn't need to spend much time with them anymore when they held a convention in Portland and then pretty much engineered a way to exclude my club from participation. I live a mere three or four miles from where the convention was and I skipped the whole thing entirely. I've got better things to do than fight about territory or whatever. P.S. Greg, you make a lot of good points, but please use some paragraph line breaks next time you write a manifesto. I am going cross-eyed just trying to read it. :sweat:
