Greg, I have got my son into N scale back at the age of 3! I put a train on the UNW and handed him the throttle at the Pacific Science Center show. I was totally expecting him to crank the throttle and run the train WFO! LOL But he did not. He turned the throttle up ever so slightly and kept asking me, "Is that fast enough Daddy?" I realized he was a natural. He is now 6 and lives in Snohomish County and I have had the urge lately to put a T-trak module together with him. Of course I would make sure the track was set to standards and do the intricate work. I would allow him to select what he wanted in the scene, what colors he wanted buildings, and even let him get dirty in the process of showing him how to do scenery. Oh I forgot to mention the fact too that when he was 2 he completely dis-assembled a Kato caboose of mine piece by piece and didn't break anything in the process. But as far as him joining the NMRA, I wont even join it so why would I let him join? I personally feel that the NMRA is a bunch of nit picking HO scalers that can care less about N scale. Ryan
It is next to impossible to change an organization from the outside. If you wish to see change, then you must participate. If you do not participate, you do not have the privilige of complaining. While everyone does have a 'agenda', the good people work towards the greater good first. So join, participate and look for the good people and leave your agenda at home
You do realize that the Pacific Northwest Region President is Walt Huston, an avid N-scaler and the owner of the Aberdeen, Tacoma, and Spanaway Forrest Railroad, right? Far from being a nit-picking HO scaler, well, he's not an HO scaler, and he's been very helpful with questions I have had as a less experienced and talented N scaler. The only 100% NMRA club in my area that I know if is my own, an N scale club. We have found that, yes, sometimes we have to jump up and wave our arms a bit to be recognized by the majority scale guys, but they do welcome us to events and they do pay attention to us, and we to them. It's all about running trains and having fun for me, not getting provincial about what scale in which the fun takes place. Some of the most fun guys around here are the Cascade Z Scalers and the Garden Railway folks. I love visiting their set-ups when they're open to the public just for the sheer joy of having fun with trains. Anyway...
While Walt is the PNW Region president. The 4th Division-PNR, after Walt left, resorted mostly back to the usual old NMRA attitude towards N scale. I kept my membership for several years but finally decided to let it expire this year.
What is the attitude you describe and how is it manifested? Is it more than just a couple predictable and foolish remarks like, "how can you even SEE that?" I get remarks like that from time to time from people at various events (not just NMRA events) and I generally consider them a much truer reflection of the speaker's unfamiliarity or ignorance and not some attack on my modeling or the validity of the ration 1:160. HO represents a larger share of the modeling activity out there, and some HO modelers do forget that they aren't the only valid scale out there, but as far as outright hostility from the organization I have seen none.
Adam, I have not seen hostility towards us N scalers, but I gotten attitudes similar to you at various events, shows, or get togethers. Mainly what I have observed over my 30+ years in the hobby is HO scalers walk right on by ANY display of ANY other scale than HO. I find there are MANY talented modelers in ALL scales. One of my most favorite layouts that I have on my bucket list is The Franklin & South Manchester. I just absolutely LOVE the details that George puts into each scene. Of course there is also Mike Dannemans Rio Grande layout. These are just 2 examples of VERY talented modelers. I also know a couple of narrow guage RRs that I have been wanting to see here in the Seattle are but have not yet had the opportunity. Personally, I enjoy operating on N and HO layouts here at home, and even from time to time go to some Garden RRs too. I must admit though I am not a die hard G scaler as I am not one that will be in an op session when it is pouring down rain or snowing outside. But it is fun to walk all around the yard enjoying the sun and even sucking down a bottle of suds, all while playing trains. Life cant get much better. Ryan
Ryan, That sort of thing you describe is what I have seen - some very short-sighted kind of scale-centric ridiculousness on the part of a few. When that happens, I consider the source, shrug my shoulders and smile at the silliness of it all, and move on. Not worth an ulcer. Hey, didn't at least one of your N scale pieces place at the Pacific Model Loggers' Congress? I was one of two contest facilitators, and I remember checking in, what, 2 or 3 of your models there. Adam
Adam, I clearly should have snubbed you more when I lived up there. According to some here I'm too nice to be an HO Scaler.
Yes Adam, my GHQ Peterbuilt 359 log truck that is highly detailed placed I think 3rd and my Atlas Chehalis Western GP 7 #765 placed 2nd. I got beat out by Pete Replinger with his HO Scale Columbia & Cowlitz FM D-1. I had several model there. I also had my GHQ Komatsu heel boom loader, my Chehalis Western log trains 1) with FM #492 and skeletons and 2) with 2 GP 38-2 with #597 and some modern log cars. Ryan
I didn't realize that my post would look like that when I was done, Sorry. I'll promise to leave spaces, if some of you promise to read through all the posts before replying. Ken, Facetious !!! Got a detention in high school for that, been down hill ever since. Ryan, By younger, I Didn't mean 2 ! although thats cool, MRNS has a minimum height requirement ! To those that feel slighted by the NMRA or HOers in general, I can see that happening. When I moved out here in the late 80s, I found out about the Tacoma NMRA monthly meeting/clinic. Not knowing anybody around these parts, I went even though I wasn't a member. Every one was very welcoming and I've made some great friends there. Sure, there wasn't much N-Scale stuff being shown there, so I started bringing some stuff. Sure, a few people didn't care, but several did and more n-scale started showing up. I won a few times and so did some others with N. I AM NOT SAYING NMRA IS PERFECT. just needs more POSITIVE N-Scale input. Inkaneer, Yes, We had N-Trek for 20 years out here. N-Scale only, Layouts and sales. I agree, more N-Scale weekends. Facetious, not recalcitrant.
Ah, ah... The kind of comment that makes me think to HO-scalers comments about N scale 40 years ago... History always repeats itself! Z scale unable to run well? What a strange idea! As I'm a kind guy, I'm just giving here a link about my Z scale "Plywood Pacific", soon to loose that current status...:wink: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY5fXW9LcuM&list=UU7wCE2Fk3jnlH_dVBdZt-xw&index=1&feature=plcp Dom
A Q1 was a 4-6-4-4 duplex drive PRR steam engine with the rear engine reversed. A Q2 was a 4-4-6-4 with the engines in normal configuratiuon. For a Q1 go here: http://prrsteam.org/q1_6130a.html and here: http://prrsteam.org/q1_6130.html This is a Q2: http://prrsteam.org/q2_5131.html and this: http://prrsteam.org/q2_6184.html
There were some people that have made the "classical NMRA" comments to me about my N scale efforts (I DO have a Golden Spike and at one time was active in their achievement program). Granted, the NMRA isn't as bad here as in other areas that I've lived (i.e. Lexington, KY area mid-1980's and Atlanta, GA area early 1990's) where the local NMRA divisions were openly hostile towards N scale and if you weren't an O or HO scale modeler, you weren't a REAL modeler (if that was the case, I'd pity anyone in S scale). Personally, I enjoy a well done layout in ANY scale!
Seems to me that one would have to ask what need is not being met in Model Railroading, and specifically N Scale, by existing organizations (NMRA, World's Greatest Hobby, NTRAK, TTRAK, N Scale Enthusiast, general magazines, N Scale and N Scale Railroading, internet forums and groups, local clubs). I wasn't able to attend the NSE convention this year but have noted the spirit of activities at the conventions varies quite a bit....all of them are good, but some better in certain aspects. One poster mentioned the great informal gatherings of N Scalers at Medford.....something that I was surprised happened not at all at Hershey. I think this has more to do with the dynamics of the venue (more families came with to enjoy Hershey, PA Dutch Country?; layout of the convention site) than anything that can be planned. I think the NSE conventions that have strong NTRAK support are better than those that don't....clinics, participation, layout tours, etc.. are more interesting. But that depends on a local club being able to step up to the plate to put together their end of things. Not all clubs can do that.....my old NTRAK club, for example, even though fairly large and in a major metropolitan city, IMHO could not pull it off nor could it take a leadership role in enlisting other nearby NTRAK and N Scale groups to help. Milwaukee, Louisville, Chantilly, St. Louis, LA, and other areas have put on great shows with NTRAK participation. But back to the original premise of the thread.... NTRAK's regional reorganization failed because some people started to play politics. NTRAK is basically a basic set of interchange specifications which allow people to build modular layout sections that reliably work with each other and allow the creation of large temporary layouts that allow running more and longer trains than would be possible on most layouts in dedicated spaces. You don't have to like the look of three rather widely spaced mainlines and disjointed scenery treatment that results to see that the concept works and by bringing N Scale to the public attracts non-Model Railroaders and people in other scales to 1/160 once they see what can be accomplished by one person in a 2' X 4' space. NTRAK Clubs should not have a big political component because the club doesn't (or should not) "own" much, just provide an opportunity for N Scalers to get together. To me the one thing that no existing organization is doing or doing well is in the Standards arena. The NMRA was founded to 1) Promote the Hobby of Model Railroading and 2) to Establish Interchange Standards to allow equipment and supplies from different manufacturers to work together. IMHO the NMRA abdicated the first role forcing others to form the World's Greatest Hobby to step in to fill the vacuum. The second has been mired in amateur engineering and politics, trying to make the NMRA a pseudo NASA, Consumer Protection Agency, Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval grantor and Department of Education. At its founding the NMRA had participants who represented Modelers, Manufacturers and Magazines (the latter two were also personally Modelers). Over time the Magazines backed away from coverage and support of the NMRA perhaps as the NMRA Bulletin started to try to compete with them for advertising revenue and the Model Railroaders turned publishers and editors retired and were replaced with journalists turned Model Railroaders. The manufacturers started to drop out of the organization at some point, probably starting around the time of the ill-conceived effort to develop a NMRA Coupler for HO. The X2f was, in some ways, a success because it allowed a trainset industry to flourish for decades. But no meaningful revision or updating of the NMRA standards has taken place since the early 1960s and today there is virtually no Manufacturing representation in the NMRA, even in the DCC committee where politics reduced the working group to one or two representatives of companies working in that field. The NMRA has been loath to endorse any commercial products as a "Standard" which is understandable to some degree. But it caused them to neglect Couplers in the Standards..... which is one of the most important interchange issues facing Model Railroaders and Manufacturers alike. The current standards only reference a "Universal" Draft Gear Box which is designed for the HO Baker, Devoe and Mantua Couplers, none of which has been manufacture red since the early 1950s. The Marketplace is by and large the determiner of "Standards" beyond the accepted and established basic "Standards" for gauge, electrical conventions, etc. What is needed is a uniform, organized, reliable documentation of the range of products that impact interchange....Trucks, Couplers, Wheelsets and Track...presented in a format that allows comparison and understanding of required dimensions. The literature from Manufacturers does not do this as key dimensions are missing in many cases and completely absent in most. This is especially critical for Manufacturers who have to individually measure samples to obtain the required size for a Draft Gear Box should be or the proper Body Bolster configuration to make a car ride at the correct height with different brands of Trucks. Every time a company makes a measurement they are slightly different from someone else’s dimension and incompatibilities creep into the marketplace. So do we need a new Organization to represent N Scale? Maybe not, although it seems to me that the NTRAK and NSE organizations should either merge or work more closely together for National and Regional events. N Scale is fairly well represented by local NTRAK and other clubs at WGH and commercial shows and major NMRA events so I don't see a major need in the Promotion of the Hobby end of things. I would like to see a professional-grade documentation of existing N Scale Interchange products....but that does not require a National (or International) new Organization with broad membership to pull off......the right individuals with the proper equipment could do it (engineering standards knowledge and optical measuring equipment). (I don't have those skill sets, only the desire to see it done) The NMRA is only interested in establishing new, improved standards which is okay but does not address the problems Modelers and Manufacturers have today with trying to make our trains run reliably. Charlie Vlk
I realize that there are a few individuals who are trying their best to steer the organization away from the stigma of being the N Scale Collector (Investor). I am friends with many of them and I share their frustration. Until the old guard click is replaced with open elections, I fear there will be no real change except for the event as it is. The current regime is determined to fully control the event and dictate how other groups are to operate. You only have to look at Chantilly and Louisville to see how great a combined convention is when others attend. The reality is that each convention was two distinctly separate events due to the inflexible nature of the executive committee and the lack of desire to be more open. Renaming an organization without presenting a new open mantra is just like painting a donkey green. No matter how you look at it or question it, it is still a donkey. While it is true that change is futile from exterior forces, they are almost as futile from the inside while the same people are in charge and not willing to relinquish control. My prime reason for dropping my NSC membership and the fact I am no longer willing to attend the conventions. I would like to call on Eric Smith (since Micro-Trains owns the NSC) to allow for others to take a lead in directing the organization. Open all positions within the NSC to elections by open vote. Develop and publish a new charter that is in line with an Enthusiast direction instead of a controlling a Collector. What can it really hurt?
All they did was change the C for an E. Everything else is the same. To me its just an old pig with new lipstick. Not saying its a bad thing. But I think they think they did something that was life/hobby changing. I love the conventions. Meeting people you know face-face is wonderful. The auctions are great. Doug does a wonderful job with that. The magazine is good too. It is a tool that serves a purpose. It may serve different people in different ways, but it works. Could it be better? Sure. Anything can be improved on. I will say, if they don't do something to arouse interest, the conventions which cost a lot to attend, will be a thing of the past.
