I'm biting the bullet and going vertical. After laying out my most recent plan with cardboard templates and putting some trains on there, it just isn't big enough to do what I want on one level. So, I need some opinions here. There are two points I'm pondering (and the answer to one may answer both). I want a yard, and with a 12' run, I can have it. The question is, yard on top or bottom level? I'm a locomotive nut, and I like the stand-out, unique, and interestingly painted stuff along with the standards, so there will be lots of eye candy to see. The other part of that is the mandate (or should I say "wifedate"?) that I have to include some sort of continuous running option. The level with the yard I envision having no continuous running option. So the question then becomes, yard on top or bottom?
Ok, my $0.02 worth, I think you will be happier with the yard on the lower level and your continuous run on the upper level. I had the same sort of decision to make on my layout. I am more comfortable with my yard at easy reach.
Let's have a look at the size of your room first. Also, some information on what you're looking for. There might be an alternative you haven't looked at. Sorry if you just posted these recently - too much going on on multiple sites to keep track of.
Heh... I know how you feel! Ok... here are the basics: 10'x12' "L" shape I'd like to stay around 2' deep for most of the length, but I can expand to around 3' wide at the end's of the "L" legs to accomidate helixes or loops. * My era is the present day (or as close as I can come). * The location is the Dakotas (hence I want mostly flat terrain). * Traffic is going to be coal, unit grain, manifest, and intermodal. Some passenger equipment will make an appearance. * Minimum radius is 12" for the equipment I have, but I'm going for about a 14" minimum just to be on the safe side. At the moment, I'm leaning toward using helixes of 21" tall, 14" radius track curves, to go between decks. I think I can get a 2nd track on th inside of that to use as serial staging. My main focus is to have a nice yard with prominent placement for locmotive service (eye candy) and some local industries. The continuous running is a mandate (wifedate) that was given me so my close-to-7 year old jr. engineer and his friends can watch some trains run (and so can the wife). I'm not against that. I'm thinking about putting my yard on the upper deck, and setting the lower level about 30-32" with the upper deck at 50" or so. I know for the operation I want, I need staging. If I don't stage in the helixes, then I'll need to stage on either the upper or lower levels and just put scenery on the other level (or I could, I guess, put staging on the lower level behind a backdrop and put a run-through track with maybe 1 or two "flat" industries to let the kiddies have something on their level to look at. Thoughts?
My preference (unless the layout is really large) is for a layout where a single continuous mainline covers as much distance as possible. Note that when I say "single", I don't exclude double track, and when I say "continuous", I don't exclude loop-to-loop or even point-to-point. What I mean is that all or most of the mainline track is devoted to one route that can be traversed end-to-end (or for one lap) without reversing or backtracking. I like double-deck plans, but only if this mainline runs on both decks. Not sure how to manage that here, since this will be small as double-deck layouts go. You don't want to spend the room on more than one helix. Oh... 14" radius helix will mean grades a little on the steep side, considering that visible areas are largely flat.
I don't know if it's small... it just isn't a garage empire. I've seen another layout here by Cleggie that isn't that much smaller, and if my modeling is 1/2 as good, I think I make due. At this point, I'm almost at the finish line with this idea... the only question I have before I finish the plan and post it up here is: Do most people leave their helixes open or do you build over the top of them? I'm thinking about dropping the helix on one end down enough to let me put some yard tracks over the top. Any thoughts?
Ok, here are my 2 (Euro) cents worth: My room is only slightly larger, about 12 x 12 feet. But it is a fully dedicated room, so I could go around all 4 walls with a swing-bridge (lower deck) and duckunder (upper deck) over the entrance. My decision was to have the "scenic" route on the upper deck. This deck represents a mountain pass climb, so I needed more vertical separation than I could squeeze into the lower deck. The lower deck holds the main yards, the "Big City" and the engine terminal: I find switching much easier if you can look slightly down on your cars. Couplers are easier to see, clearences become more abvious and it is also easier to re-rail a car (Derailments typically happen only in the yard or the least accessible area). I have actually two mainlines: One on the lower deck, going from staging to the yard and back to a different staging. Both staging yards have a return loop, so I do not need to re-stage at the end of an ops session. The second mainlione leaves the yard, goes up the big helix to the upper deck, circles around 2 times and goes into the upper staging yard, again a loop. With DCC it is quite easy to automate the operation of a loop, so it is possible to have continous running if desired. Both levels offer additional independent continuos loops for "entertainment" running or loco break in. So for your space I would consider one mainline that goes from staging through the lower level yard (with a nice big engine facility to hold the "eye candy") up the helix. The upper deck could be the "scenery running" with a small town and one or two industries for ops interest. I would loop the upper deck back to the helix and use it for serial staging. To maximize the sdpac ethe helix takes I would connect the lower deck with a staging level with a second helix that sits directly beneath the deck-connecting one. If you lay out the tracks in a way that both helix "rotate" in the same direction you could build one large helix, connecting all 3 decks: This way you could feed unit trains back to their starting point. Food for thought... Cheers Dirk
You're thinking just like me. I count a layout with 3 decks where the lowest is non-sceniced staging as a 2-deck layout. 2 decks, to me, means 2 visible operating decks.
I would strongly urge you to avoid building any permanent track/yards over the helix. 1. No matter how exceptional your construction skills are, you will need to do routine maintenance and possibly even major repairs at some point in the future. You will have to crawl under the layout and rise inside the cylinder of the helix to get to any portion of the helix against the wall or behind the lower level backdrops. Depending on the level and thickness of the lowest shelving supports, you may have to be a contortionist to duck under the shelf supports and rise into the 2-foot wide opening at the base of the helix...and then you'll have to crouch or kneel at less than full height to perform your maintenance. Because of the headroom issue, your eye level will be below the 2nd highest loop and maybe even the 3rd highest loop, so you will be doing maintenance (and repairs) by feel only...no direct view. 2. If the helix opening is covered, you will need to make arrangements for light to see what maintenance you are performing inside the helix. Although some light will come between the helix loops, it may not be adequate for anything more than basic track cleaning. 3. Even if you have complete access on the front, back, and end of shelving where the helix is, you will still have tremendous difficulty reaching the 2nd loop from the top of the helix on the side toward the rest of the layout. This access will become especially problematic if you have the layout L in the corner of a room against 2 walls so that you only have access from the front and end. Some other points to consider in your planning: 1. At 14 inch radius and rising 2.25 inches in a single loop (2 inches clearance plus 1/4 inch thickness of the helix ramp itself), you will need to have about a 2.5% grade. This is about as steep as you can go and still have consistently reliable operation through the helix. Adding a second track for serial staging inside the 14 inch radius main track will require a maximum of a 13 inch radius on the inner track. This will yield a grade of about 2.75%. The sharper radius will also increase resistance so the inside track up the helix may "feel" about as steep as a 3% grade. 2. Adding the serial staging will give you a ramp that is about 3 inches wide and space between the railheads and bottom surface of the next higher loop of 2 inches...and a 2x3 space offers extremely little space for routine track maintenance. Covering the helix opening with track will make all maintenance in the 2x3 inch space even more difficult. 3. If you as still set on putting serial staging in the helix, then put it at the 14 inch radius and the main helix track itself at about 15 or 15.5 inches radius. The footprint of the helix will still be less than 36 inches, even with a loop of track running around the outside of the top of the helix. This change in helix dimensions won't help the access issue, but will reduce the grade up the helix. 4. I played with various dimensions for a spiral (bowl-shaped) helix instead of a stacked cylindrical helix, but could not come up with anything that will fit the space you have available.
Ppuinn, Thanks for the input. Your points all make sense. My criteria keeps getting shifted on me, so the moving target has made this a little harder. Maybe I've been hitting this too hard and I need to step back and relax, and rethink the whole plan and then get at it again.
Last week on Thursday, we visited some friends down the street from us. They have exactly the same floorplan we do from the builder (since we're in a new development). As we're walking into their house through their garage, we see that instead of a 3 bay garage, they have a 2 bay. My wife says, "Hey, how did you do this and what are you doing with the other bay?" My freind replied "We put up this wall, put an AC unit (not part of the house AC) in the wall, and we're putting rubber matt on the floor to make it an exercise room." We walk into their new exercise room, and I said "Did you have to get a permit?" He says "It's not a permanet thing, we can knock it out in about 15 minutes if we need to, and since it's not part of the house AC and we made no other changes, we checked and didn't need a permit because they consider it to still be part of the garage." Now, let me tell you, I have a wife who is greatly supportive of my interests. She helps with the trains, and she's a baker, so she's collected a "food traim" (cars with food related markings). As we walked home, knowing the struggles I've been having with my layout planning, she says "Why don't we do what (they) did and make you a train room out of that bay? We're not moving out of the house, and as long as you can make it so the cat's aren't up on it, I think you should do that." Not one to look a gift-horse in the mouth, I said "OK!" So, Sunday, I started clearing and rearranging the garage storage to make myself some room, and by Sunday evening, I have the following space: 18' x 12' On one side of the 18' length, I need to leave a 3' aisle to allow access for the waterheater and to get from the door of the laundry room and out to the garage. That effectively makes the space 18'x9' enclosed on 3 sides. I've measured and made a materials list for the new wall, so that should be up within the next couple weeks. Today, I'm going to look for flooring, etc... Now, my biggest problem is finding inspiration. Believe it or not, but everything I've saved over the years is related to small (under 10x8) layouts. I've built several layouts in that size or smaller. So, now that I have this huge space, I need to figure out how to use it! More to come, I'm sure.
Wow, 18x12, that is indeed a great space for a layout. Let us know in which direction your thoughts / plans go.... Cheers Dirk
Now moving toward 1 deck Here's the basic plan I'm working from to draw a detailed plan. This is NOT to scale. The staging yard is going to have a 2' wide opening that is reached via rolling desk-chair. There is a 3' long swing-gate/bridge to get to the middle of the layout. I may take that part out, or figure out a way to turn trains around on that end of the layout so I don't have to include the gate. More detailed plan to come soon.
Your space is not that much smaller than my 23 x 12. Here's how I filled the first level: Then the second level: Then the third:
JKD: You have lots of room to develop a plan that does not incude a duckunder/liftout section. A walk in layout is soooo much better.
JKD, Your room dimensions of 18x9 are exactly the same as what I have. Here is the rough 3-level track plan I settled on: http://csxdixieline.blogspot.com/2008/06/track-plan.html I can tell you this much, we moved into this house 13 years ago and I have been thinking track plans seriously for that room for about the last 18 months. If I would have had just another foot of width (say 18x10), there would have been much more options. If you could get any more width out of your space, I would highly recommend doing so. Of course, I realize all too well this is not often possible. Anyway, best wishes on the layout plans and look forward to following your progress! Jamie
I've made some progress in planning.... but it's slow going, mostly because I'm not used to having this much space! I'm leaning toward doing something that you walk into and operate from inside instead of the multi-sided deal as I posted before. I still may have to deal with a lift-out or duck-under to get into, but I'm setting the layout at between 50" and 52" for the height. I've looked at doing the multi-level idea as CSXDixieLine suggested (and a few others). My problem with that is that I'm trying to model the openness of South Dakota. I can't get more than the 9x18.... there needs to be room for someone to walk past. However, eliminating operating in that aisle of the 18x12 room will make that easier. It's funny to me how the bigger the space gets, the greedier you get (or at least I get) with what I want to run. :tb-err:
