Is it time to start over? After looking a the different photos and reading the different threads here on TrainBoard, I think that maybe it is time to scrap what I have and start over. So here is the challenge that I am putting out to the track designers on TrainBoard, give me a new track plan from the following information. I would also like to hear suggestions on making changes that would improve the current layout without major changes. My layout is in a 10 ft X 12 ft building with a single door in the center of one 10 ft end that swings out to open. Equipment that I use DCC Have 2 auto reverses. Run diesels, mostly GP-38’s have a few 6 axel locos. See the roster page on the GD&R website www.gdrinc.com/Railroad. Rolling stock is made up of 40 ft , 50 ft and longer boxcars all sizes of tank cars flatcars (40 ft, center beam, balk head, TOF, Coil Cars, depressed, etc.) Refrigerated cars Open hoppers of different lengths Covered hoppers of different lengths Auto racks Gondolas Log Cars (one of the current customers is a paper mill) Scale: N See the customers page of the web site for information on the current customers. Some of the requirements that I have are Continuous running, have to have this for the grand kids. They are not old enough to understand the switching aspect. I also like to see the train move through the scenery. A dog bone would be okay. A switching layout with at least six (6) online customers within an urban setting. I have a large amount of non-railroad buildings that I would like to use. Be able to use as many of the car types I have. Remove the spaghetti look. A small multi track fiddle/staging yard that I can work to built trains Use the turnouts that I currently have (about 42). All Peco code 80 insulfrog (don’t need to employ all of them) 14 are medium about 50-50 right and left, all are on the mainline (continuous loop on the track plan below) 1 wye The rest are shorts again about 50-50 right and left (most are within the customers, leads to customers, and yard). Use the current bench work with as few changes as possible. (See the bench work image below. The gird lines are at 12 inches.) Bench work must fit within the same space that is currently in use. The space to the right of the red ell has to remain, due to a miscalculation on my part when installing the AC I can remove the extension on the peninsula (red attached to the green) I will consider changing the ell (red) at the bottom right to a section like the orange on the top right of the image. I will consider adding a removable section (between the current red ell at the end of the intechange and the orange section, to the right of the turnout for customer #9) in front of the door. I have been considering this for a while as a way to enhanced the operation. Have an industrial district (3 or more customers) that has its own loco for moving cars as needed after being spotted by the main railroad. the current industrial district consists of customer 1, 2, 3 and the team tracks. Minimum radius of 15 inches on the main (currently have that but for the 180 degree turn around customer #5) Keep the grade as small as possible. Totally flat is okay. At least one interchange to the outside world. I don’t need a turntable. Thanks for reading this post and considering taking the challenge. Gary I apologize that the images are not the same size and that the track plan image above is not to scale. Edit: 10/24/09 The side (12 long) walls of the Train Building are only about 72 inches high and the bench is at about 49. Due to the amount of train stuff I have collected in the last 50 or so years all the space below the bench is used for storage.
Gary: It took me the last six months to develop my “everything” track plan with a lot of help from fellow TB members. I initially designed the track plan using a CAD program, then laid out the track on the bench work and ran trains through test operations. My original design was unconsciously riddled with holes. Learning to recognize the holes helped me to learn how to design a more realistic and operationally correct track plan. I am still a novice; however I wish to share my thoughts on your “challenge”. Your current track plan meets most of your criteria.:thumbs_up: For continuous running I would start by completing the dog bone with a return loop at customer #11. This will give you more real estate allowing you to relocate / spread out your customers / fiddle yard, incorporate additional ground scenery, increase mainline running, maintain a 15 inch radius or greater on the mainline and remove the return loop at customer #5. I do not see a huge issue with the “spaghetti look”. Once ground scenery is applied it will disappear. IMHO real time setup and operations is the true test of a questionable track plan. What looks good on paper may not always look good on the bench work or provide trouble free operations. Problems are much easier to identify and fix before gluing anything down. The cost to do it right the first time is time; the cost to redo it is time, money and grief. Persistence will pay off. Jerry
Gary, I too question you're desire to start from scratch. Take for instance writing a book. You're first draft will never be published by anyone, thats just fact. And if you scrap the first draft all together, that next draft is again a first draft. You're plan is a better first draft than many that I've seen. What you need to do is just refine it. Sit down and learn how to use any of the various track planning software available (I recommend XtrkCad, its free). Build your plan in the software so that everything is to scale and matches foot for foot. It's nearly impossible to follow a representational design as you have posted here. Here are some initial ideas to jump start the refinement process on you're current design.. These are mostly just turnout positions to make industrial operations more efficient. Also, if you put in a lift out bridge across the door way, you can connect your two interchange tracks to have an around the room continuous loop. You could also experiment by adding a double main to the dog bone main against the wall to create two independent loops, one being the dog bone, the other being the around the room. But first things first, get that plan to scale!
Hi Jerry, Thanks for the input. This layout has been in the developing/expanding stage for 5 years now, and I really don't think I or it will ever have the “everything” that I have dreamed about. You are correct that the “spaghetti look” does disappear with scenery. Even though I have not done much with true scenery, but with the placement of buildings, both customers and non-customers, the look improves greatly. I know from building this and other layouts, what looks good on paper may not work on the bench. While planning the addition of the ell at the bottom right of the bench work image, I spent the better part of a month drawing and doing a full size mock up. When all the track was finally down it did not work. Thus changes were made to what it is now. Persistence is what has lead me to what the plan looks like at this time. LOL I really don't want to total start over, I just wish I had found the TrainBoard before I started building the layout. Gary
Hi Mark, Thanks for the followup. I really don't want to restart, but I have a feeling something is not right. Maybe it is because I have not had much time to work on it in the past year (read wife has kept me busy remodeling the house) and I'm getting antsy. I have to say that I have to consider some of the changes that you are suggesting. The changes in the yard are very interesting I had not thought about it to that extent. I like the idea that a train coming along the bottom from the right has a choice as to what direction to go. Where you relocated the interchange to near customer 9 is where I was thinking about installing a turnout to do what you did with the lift out bridge. As I said in my requirements list I want (read must have) an industrial district. Currently customers 1, 2, 3, and the team tracks make that up. Because of that I need to keep the short connector between the two sections of main line. If you look close you might see the remains of a time saver puzzle in that area. (Please no comments on the time saver / time waster.) With the changes in the yard and the above mentioned short connector there would be some interesting train routing possibilities. I don't think I have the room to double track the main, but that too is an interesting idea. You have given me a lot to think about :thumbs_up:, thank you. Draw something to scale? NOT! LOL Gary
That basically forces you to eliminate that turnaround, either by the lift/swing bridge or With the lift bridge, you could eliminate the turnback at top right and have a simple once-around loop. By expanding the lower right section, you could have either a dogbone (but that would force two mains through the lower section, increasing crowding) or a loop-to-loop.
Ok, you grabbed my interest more than I hoped. Here's an option for you drawn to scale in XtrkCad. You can see the old benchwork transparent, which shows how difficult your original plan would be to fit in the bottom left corner, even though the representational drawing looked ok. I took the red peninsula and moved it to the top right notch of the green section, then added depth to the corner to get wider curves. I built this based on 15" minimum radius, but had to sacrafice down to 13.75 for the 90 degree corner turn in the bottom left. All curves, including the 13.75r, are fitted with generous easements which will greatly improve their look. All turnouts except for the yard ladder are #6. I also made the interchange track a double main, so you can now operate on a dog-bone loop, or two independent around the room loops. The yard was a challenge to fit into place and might require even more work so that yard switching does not interrupt the dog-bone or inner room loop. The long stub over the red can be your RIP/Work/Programming track. Oh, this is laid out using Unitrack, however can be adapted to any brand of track. I just use Unitrack for planning because it's easy and more precise than messing with splines. Ok, here is the plan, and here is the XtrkCad file for you to download. (Right-Click, save-as)
Hi Mark, I like how you have opened up the room by relocating the red peninsula extension. Looking at the current operation, I could do that and rearrange customer 8 to fit the area. The one concern I have with that is the space between it and the yellow part becomes only 24 inches for about a foot, because I have another problem, I seem to not be getting any smaller. Being that is is only 12 inches deep I can work with that. Why did I not think of putting it there to begin with? Good thing I have not installed the fascia. Now you have given me more to think about. Still considering some changes from your first post. I went out to the Train Building last night and again this morning before coming to work to get ideas and visualize some possible changes. Thanks, Gary
I think it may be interesting to add a long passing siding along the back of the layout. Then you could have bi-directional mainline traffic
Gary: I just wanted to share my thoughts with a picture. You may have already been here and done this. I did not redraw the entire layout as this is intended to tie into the existing layout as is. I hope you find this interesting. Jerry
Hi Jerry, Yes I find that interesting. As I had said I would consider doing something like that. The one thing I had not considered was the tightness of the angle that you used. Thanks for the suggestion, Gary
Thanks Gary! The minimum radius used was 15 inch with 28 inch and 19 inch easements in select places. This was designed using Unitrack as Mark did. Jerry
Two general observations: 1) I went to your web site and noticed you were running passenger equipment. A 15" curve is awfully tight (visually) for anything running behind a P42. 2) I agree that there is no reason to go back and start from scratch, but improving what doesn't work as well as we might have hoped is always a good reason for ripping out the parts that didn't work Two of the things that seems a bit constrained at the size of the yard at the bottom (blue) section of the layout and the (not quite a) dogbone at the lower left, which is, apparently, less than even 15". So that's an obvious area to rethink (and several respondants have. The other thing to consider in terms of getting more space is the use of a helix to reach a second level (up and you can put in an 18" deep shelf on brackets mounted to the wall, although do8ing that *after* the main level is build is not the easiest job in the world or burrowing downward for a staging yard under the front of the yellow section of your plan (again not the easiest job, especially after the main level has been covered -- but the jouts of the helix are that you can make a couple of more loops and drop that lower level so it can be done.). Notes about the attached: 1) For the sections I've modified, I've used a minimum of 18" on the Main (and helix), but kept with 15" elsewhere. Sticking with the 15" minumum would eliminate the need to extend the table for the helix (but a narrower radius in the helix would increase the grade - currently about 2.7%, depending on the clearance desired between levels). 2) The expanded table is shown in gray. 3) The yard is a bit larger and includes a lead and separate A/D tracks and caboose tracks. It can easily be expanded to include engine facilities (it needs one - the best place is probably within the loop on the lower right), RIP tracks and other facilities. The configuration is also set up so that trains arriving or departing will not interfere with a yard switcher classifying the stub-ended classification tracks. As drawn, The A/D tracks will accept 12 car trains, given the equipment you are running. The classification tracks can be extended, if desired. 4) While I show the interchange, I did not lay in any of the industries. There are plenty of possible locations for the ones dislocated, depending on what decisions might be made about an engine terminal for the yard. One I liked particularly is a set of tracks running off the main above the yard. It's easy to put in two longer parallel sidings and place several businesses on each one (or put in a third between the other two for overflow traffic awaiting a turn at a (un)loading docks (but see 5, below) 5) Both of those loops have a too long a long reach should something derail at the worst point. There's no good solution for the for the orange area at the top, except an access hatch. For the bottom onr an access hatch is also a possibility, but eliminates the use of that speace to extend the yard facilities and/or add that industrial park. A better possibility might be to actually widen the Oops area (to the right of the red section by at least 6 inches. An 18" aisle can work for emergency access. Anyway, just some other possibilities to think about. Good luck
Hi MikeFromCT, Thanks for the feedback. Yes I do run a passenger train once in a while. It is not my primary train and at the most it as 2 cars. It really does not look too bad on the 15 in radius since with the buildings hiding most of the curves. Most of the trains have a GP38 or something that size with 6-10 cars. The premise of the GD&R is it is a regional shortline that acts as bridge between a few of the class 1s and serves the online customers along the way. No big trains, just a bunch of switching. Yes the one 180 turn at customer 5 is about 10.5 in radius. Most of it is hidden by buildings so it is not obvious. I do wish it was bigger, but to make the turn and remain within the 24 inches of that part of the bench when it was built, it had to be tight. I don't know if you read the history of the the layout, but when I built that section I was planing have it like the left end loop before the railroad was evicted from the house, with part of the city over it and that is still a valid option. I'm trying to hide the tight turns with cuts and buildings and not cover them. It seemed like the only time something derailed when the layout was in the house was when it was in the tunnel under the elevated part of the city. The yard started out as a couple two track staging areas, and they have expanded to what I have now. I am planning on putting a turnout at the right end of the yard track next to main as a way for the incoming loco to escape. I should have stated this in the requirements/limitations. The side (12 ft long) walls of the Train Building are only about 72 inches high and the bench is at about 49. Due to the amount of train stuff I have collected in the last 50 or so years all the space below the bench is used for storage. I have tried to figure out how to put a helix in were I added the ell at the bottom right but at best I could only gain about 12 inches between layers and I was not sure if it was worth the effort and due to only 12 inches my taller buildings would not fit where planned. (whine, bellyache, whine). I agree that an 18 inch radius would be much better. Due to design of the Train Building I don't think I can extend the bench work, it is already within an 1.5 inch of the door on the top right. With the bench at the height it is I am concerned that the little people in my life would not pay attention to the placement of the bench in relationship to the door as they step up into the Train Building and split their small heads open, you know how excited they can get when going out to Grandpa's trains. One thing I have been considering is a lift bridge between the orange and red ell sections, if I did, it would only be in place when the railroad is in use. The orange section does pose a small problem with the reach, but with the step stool I have and careful reaching I have been able to recover the mishaps in that area. Just a couple so far. Jinxed myself here LOL. That is why all the turnouts are within an arms reach and most are within 12 inches of the front edge. I have not made a final decision to any changes yet, and I'm sure that when I do, I'll use ideas from many of the replies. Thanks again for the input, Gary
Dropping in late... Gaz, Whatever you do don't truncate any yard space. Make them at least as long as the nominal train length. You could essentially operate two locals from the yard - that serving customers 1-4 and 9 and that serving customers 5-8. I like the original concept though I would consider the private loco servicing customer 10 and 11 from the yard through a reversing move out and in. This would keep the yard switcher amused setting up and breaking apart these trains over and above two other locals. The layout can be run as an out and in point to point between the yard and the low numbered customers. I like the return loop idea so maintain the the track at back of customers 5, 6 and 7 as the return loop where it can be hidden behind structures. The 'other' Gary R
Hi Gary Better late then never. You have given me a different perspective on how to operate. I envisioned that the yard is at one end of the city and was only looking at 2 trains, with one working customers 1 – 9, team tracks and interchange. The train second working customers 10, 11 and the interchange near customer 11. How I understand your suggestion the yard would be located more towards the center of the city (without moving it. Yes, I have vivid imagination at times) and there would be 3 locals leaving the yard. This train would take the left leg of the wye as it departs the yard and works customers 1 – 4, 9, Team tracks & the interchange. This one would take the right leg of the wye and work customers 5 –8. Departing on the right leg of the wye also, this local would take the branch line and work customers 10, 11 along with the interchange near customer 11. This would work without making any changes to the current track plan and it would make the operation a bit more interesting. I could reverse the customers of trains 1 & 2. Drat more to think about! LOL Of course all three would make a couple laps (need some run time) around the loop before working their customers. I currently operate the railroad as an out and back taking the different legs of the wye as the trains depart the yard. The track along the left side of the image is currently (mostly) hidden by buildings, both commercial and a low rent multiple-family housing project set behind customers 5, 6 and 7. I do not have any plans to shorten the yard tracks since they will hold trains of the correct length (loco and 5-6 cars and sometimes I have up to 10 or 12 cars, but then I have to use two yard tracks and do some coupling as the local leaves the yard on its journey) I do have some room and can add a couple car lengths to most of them and have been considering that for a while. Furthermore most of my passing sidings are about the same length as the yard tracks. Thanks again for the reply, Gary R. Rose from KY (not be confused with Gary A. Rose from Sydney)
Hi, I want to thank everyone who gave suggestions and ideas on this challenge. I have decided NOT to start over. What I have decided to do is Relocate the peninsula extension; this was a suggestion from on of the replies. In the process of relocating the extension, I removed two of the tracks to customer 8; this is back to what it was before I had added the extension. With the peninsula extension relocated (see image below with a scale track plan included), the room is opened up. Not sure what I will put on the relocate extension, but it may not have any new online customers. Other then this I have not changed any bench work Operate with three (3) local trains out of the yard. This too was a suggestion. The locals trains will work The Brunk Industrial District (BID) made up of customers 1 – 4 and the team tracks. Customer 9 and the interchange near the BID heading down the right leg of the wye. Customers 5 – 8 using the left leg of the wye. Customers 10 & 11 and the interchange near customer 11 also using the right leg of the wye. There are a few other suggestions that I am still contemplating including but not limited to adding a second track to customer 5. adding lift out section as talked about across the door way but use it as a staging area. Again thank you, Gary
