I went to the WGH show in Chantilly, VA today and talked with the Athearn folks about some affordable HOn3 locomotives using their MDC tooling. I'd like a few 2-8-0s for a copper mine project set in the Michigan Upper Peninsula. I got the usual run around but I was wondering if there was anyone else out there interested in a non-DRGW HOn3 2-8-0. Anyone else up for something like that? BTW, you can contact Athearn at http://www.athearn.com/About/Contact.aspx
In my opinion, there were three basic narrow gauge 2-8-0s. Of course, this is a simplification. It leaves out the very first 3' gauge 2-8-0s which served on the EBT. Type 1: They were inside frame and they typically had Stephenson Valve Gear on the #2 driver. The driving spacing was something to the effect of 4'1"-3'2"-4'1". The greatest variation would have been in cylinder and boiler size. A classic would be around a 48-50" boiler with 14.5"x18" cylinders. Examples: The D&RG Class 56, 60 and 70 (later D&RGW C-16 & C-19); Every South Park/C&S 2-8-0; the South Pacific Coast's 2-8-0; all 3 Silverton railroads, NCNG, Bellevue & Cascade, and many others starting in the 1880s. Type 2: They were similar to the first but had the Stephenson gear connected to the #3 driver. They were typically in between the large and small of the Type 1 2-8-0s. They rode better and where generally better motive power. Examples: the F&CC 2-8-0s (later D&RG C-18s); the Tweetsie 2-8-0s, Silverton Northern #3 & #4, the Pacific Coast Ry 2-8-0s, and others from the 1890s. Type 3: The outside frame 2-8-0s. They probably had the greatest variation in dimensions and driver spacing. They represented the largest NG 2-8-0s, but some were small (the smallest Oahu Railway OF 2-8-0 was the size of a C-16). The first of these came in the 1890s, but they were more common than we typically realize. Examples: White Pass, Oahu Railway, Crystal River (later D&RGW C-21s & C-25), Silverton Northern #34, Deadwood Central, and extensively south of the border. The appliances varied from railroad to railroad and era to era. I suppose that by generic, you are referring to the details. If so, I wholeheartedly agree! MDC/Roundhouse wisely picked a prototype which could serve as both the Type 2 and Type 3 variety. Yes, it wasn't easy to really turn it into a sold Type 2, but it was do-able..as it was much closer dimensionally to a large Type 3. Thankfully, Blackstone's C-19 provides a mechanism (and in some cases, a boiler) for the Type 1 engines. I'm slowly working on turning my old MDC IF 2-8-0 into a F&CC 2-8-0 in her as-built appearance. To go along with her, I'm turning a SG version into a Colorado Springs & Cripple Creek District 2-8-0 (which could be seen alongside the F&CC engines at various mines with 3-rail trackage). I'd love to have a second for SN #3. If you have the courage to add external valve gear, she'd be a decent base for a spiffy version of the largest IF 2-8-0 of all...N-C-O #14 (later SPng 1, NCNG #9, and Pearl Harbor #17). Michael
I talked to someone at Athearn some time ago about the old MDC HOn3 locomotive tooling and was told it was not complete or no longer any good. They said they were not going to reissue anything that had to have new tooling made. I have been buying old 2-8-0 HOn3 kits off eBay when they were selling for what I thought was cheap. I have a good collection of them some of which are running. I found a "how to" for turning an old HOn3 outside frame MDC 2-8-0 kit into a K27. I ordered a list of PSC K27 detail parts and a lot of other parts from them last week. PCS said I might get them in two weeks. My experience with PSC says 2 months. I hope their guess is closer then mine is. While I am waiting for the part to arrive I am going to try and lower the boiler and work on one of the tenders.
Here is a picture of what inspired my interest. It's Quincy and Torch Lake #5; an 1891 Baldwin. I'm not looking to replicate the model, the spirit is all I'm going for. http://www.railroadmichigan.com/steamqtl5.jpg That being said, anyone have any ideas? I'm always open to suggestions.
Last summer, I got to see Q&TL #3. #5 is a classic example of my "Type 2"; built in 1891. #5 is very similar to the F&CC 2-8-0 that I'm building. 16x20 cylinders. Approx. 37t. 37" drivers. I can't tell if the boiler is the same diameter or not...my gut says that it is a couple inches or so larger. The definitive source for info would be either to take a measuring tape to her, or to get Baldwin's Erecting card. I checked the DeGloyer Library (the best source for Baldwin stuff), but they don't have it. (the closest I found were cards for the Calumet & Hecla and a couple industrial engines (I believe they are 0-4-0s) for companies named "Quincy". I'd highly recommend going on ebay for an old MDC engine as gardenville has done, or acquiring a brass D&RGW C-18 (such as 315 or 318). In the case of the MDC engine, it would need a new cylinder block, smaller boiler, and a bunch of detail changes. The C-18 would be a much better starting point, but would cost a bit more (approx. $200 instead of $40-$80). The C-18 would need detail changes to capture the character (and perhaps a longer smoke box). To me, it would need the Alligator type cross head replaced with a Laird type. PSC would have that detail. Somewhere I have both plans and folios for those locomotives. Michael
I appreciate the info. Much as I would enjoy it, it is not likely I will be able to get to Houghton any time soon to measure characteristics of #5. I did compare some pictures with that of a C-18 and agree a C-18 would make a reasonable analog. I also noticed that Blackstone is bringing out a "generic" versions of their forthcoming C-19 but the question there is affordability. However, the C-19 falls into your Type 1 along with the C&S B-4s rather than Type 2. All the more reason I'd like a nice little HOn3 2-8-0, DCC ready, listing for about $175.00. I won't be holding my breath though.
I don't think we'll see that anytime soon due to the lack of market. Sadly, the NG market is predominantly high $$$, highly detailed D&RGW prototypes. The MDC engines were commercially viable because so little had to be changed from the HO version (new wheels, different tender, narrowed version of the same frame). Additionally, it was from an era when kits were relevant. With proper assembly, they are very nice performers. For the C&S B-4-A and B-4-B, the C-19 would need a smaller boiler. For the B-4-C, B-4-D, B-4-E, and B-4-F, it would need a wagon top boiler. For any C&S class, it would need extensive re-detailing. If I were primarily into HOn3, I'd look into getting their mechanism direct (some places do that). Still, for a perfect mechanism with DCC & Sound, it isn't that bad (but more than I'd want to pay). Of course, I'd be more interested in building the B-4-Bs as they were when new. For neat, generic locomotives, check out the Spartan series from FED/NWSL. They were 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s that came with few detail castings. They can be had in HOn3 for sometimes as low as $120...usually around $150. They are known for running well. Michael Edit: For the un-initiated... B-4-A: Baldwin 2-8-0s inherited from the DSP&P. Dating from 1880, they were equivalent to the D&RG's Class 56 2-8-0s. Off the roster by 1910. 191 at Golden is a survivor. B-4-B: Cooke 2-8-0s inherited from the DSP&P. Built in 1883, they were slightly larger than the B-4-As, but quite a bit nicer. B-4-C: Rhode Island 2-8-0s built for the Utah & Northern in 1886. Passed into the C&S family via the DSP&P's successor, the Denver, Leadville, & Gunnison. Most were off roster by the Depression. Equivalent in performance to the D&RGW C-16s. #60 is sitting in Idaho Springs, CO. B-4-D: Baldwin 2-8-0s built for the DL&G in 1890. Reportedly better pullers than the C-19s. They lasted to the end and were good locomotives. #70 was converted to an oil burner in the 1930s. B-4-E: Baldwin 2-8-0s built for the Colorado Central's successor: Union Pacific, Denver, & Gulf in 1897. They weren't considered to be as good as the B-4-Ds, but they were larger and could pull more. Better performers than any IF power on the D&RGW. #71 sits in Central City, CO. B-4-F: Brooks 2-8-0s built for the Denver, Bolder, & Western. They were enlarged versions of the B-4-Es. Purchased by the C&S after WW1. #74 was rebuilt with external valve gear due to issues with the cylinders. #74 ended up on the RGS, #75 & #76 went south of the border. #74 is on display in Boulder, CO. Unclassified: A leased CB&Q engine from the Black Hills. She was OF and (naturally) not as handsome as the C&S power. The famed Cooke moguls were the B-3-Cs.
Thanks for the B-4 details. The other thing I'd like is a reasonably priced HOn3 Shay but I'll have to save that for another thread. For freelancing a Upper Peninsula copper hauler though, if I like it, I'm slapping a number on it and putting it on the roster, regardless of prototype.
Some good info on the Quincy & Torch Lake is available at: http://www.copperrange.org/qtl.htm The Q&TL's outside frame 2-8-0 has recently been returned to the site and is planned to be cosmetically restored for display in the rebuilt Quincy roundhouse along with the inside frame 2-8-0 and 2-6-0 that have been wasting away outside near the shaft house. The Q&TL's Mason bogie is at the Henry Ford Museum's Greenfield Village and was in use recently, there are videos of it on You-tube. I believe plans for the ore cars were published in one of the mainstream model mags as were plans for the Quincy roundhouse.
A couple years ago, I got two brand new HO Bachmann 3-truck Shays for $92.00 each so I think $150-$175 MSRP for a DCC ready Shay in HOn3 isn't out of the question. If Atlas can do it in N scale, why can't someone do it in HOn3? That is a good site and I use if for a lot of my information. I've seen the Mason bogie at Greenfield village and it is impressive. Andy "Tetsu Uma"
Last summer I had the pleasure of seeing the Q&TL 2-6-0 in the weeds behind the Huckleberry RR's shops. That's one big 2-6-0. I think you made a typo...H&TL instead of Q&TL on the Bogie... Thanks for the link; I wasn't familiar with it! Michael
