Born 50 year to late...LOL. hboy: Is it me or is the techinical side of model railroading advancing in what appears to be leaps and bounds and yet it's not? Many of us old schoolers seem to be bumping heads with each other and newbies regarding the new equipment mixed with the old stuff, Ie., Track, locomotives, switches both track and toggles, DCC versus Analog DC and etc. Much of which isn't anything like the old stuff with new problems to resolve. And, yet in some ways certain needed advances, haven't happened. What am I talking about...right? Ok for instance Athearn makes an HO, six axle locomotive with great expertise, detail, DCC decoders, light packages and sound. But, the trucks on the six axle locomotives are the same as the old derailers we've cussed at, in the past. How about? Guys want to hard wire switches, aka turnouts Ie., Peco, Atlas and others. Grant it, if you want the Frogs on the N Scale Atlas Code 55 switches hot, you will have to hard wire it. On a number of older HO Atlas #6 switches you will need to do the same thing. While others such as Kato and Peco are good to go out of the package. You are probably wondering what brings this to the fore front in my gray matter? A number of things. I'ma helping a friend build a HO layout using older track pieces. Thus my old school model railroading experience and problem resolution comes in handy. Until we add in DCC and that takes on a different dimension. How do you wire in older Analog DC equipment to operate, with the flip of a DPDT to DCC? I've done that on mine but we keep bumping heads on how to accomplish it on his layout. The ideal DCC layout has been advertised as not needing block style, old school wiring. Yet, if you also run analog DC, you will need block wiring. If you get my drift. Here on TB we can butt heads over various ways and means to solve a problem without realizing it is a new problem due to new equipment, we are trying to solve. Does that make sense? Is anyone else finding this to be true?
Think the best way to wire for both DC and DCC is to put a DPDT at the beginning of the buss wire. That way the whole layout is either DC or DCC. No mix-ups that way. This will still enable him to do a standard block wire layout, but by flipping all the blocks the same way, he can switch to DCC and run that way also.....Mike
Mike, Agreed! And that would be the easieast way to accomplish the task at hand. Add in the need to shut down trains when operating on Analog DC and you have a different animal. We are doing that with a bus running to the control panel where he is block wiring the layout, old school. The control panel has DPDT toggled switches. In the event we bring in a Cab A, Cab B set-up. Running from there to a designated or blocked track, where a train can be sided or stored and manually shut down. He has a hidden staging yard and needs to be able to shut trains down when using Analog DC. To accomplish this we also cut in isolation gaps on both tracks, both sets of rails, on the diverging side of the switch. This avoids any short in the switch when operating with either analog DC or DCC. It's older switches modified in some cases to handle DCC. I didn't mean for this to be the only point of our discussion but it's a biggee. How about 1.5v lights in a DCC locomotive that operates off a decoder...when we are used to 12v or higher, light bulbs. Just try testing those little suckers with a toy transformer...blip...pop and they are gone. Gosh!
I read somewhere that the Chinese symbol for "crisis" combines the symbols for "danger" and "opportunity." I have no idea if this is true or not, but it's a good place to start. Each time there is a major upheaval, like an economic collapse or the adoption of DCC as the "new standard," there is a crisis. Some will traverse it smoothly. Some will lose and some will profit. Some will adapt, and some will not. When I built my layout, pulling all my old DC equipment out of the boxes they'd occupied for 40 years, I planned a DC layout, with perhaps a slow transition to DCC as time went on. Fortunately, I got a bit ahead of myself and bought my DCC system sooner than expected. That night, I removed the DC power pack from the layout and put it away. I had negotiated the rapids, not screaming in terror but rather experiencing the full exhiliration of a white-water kayaker. Technololgy is going to change. So are techniques and materials, and prices too. These are all givens. Our choice is whether we want to stay behind, or "adopt and adapt." As much as I enjoy running DCC trains, building consists, watching the smooth acceleration of a team of matched engines, and seeing the headlights toggle on and off with direction, my most enjoyable train time is still very basic, scratch-building interiors for buildings, and setting the stage for the actors to cross. And now, 6 decades after I first blew the whistle on my first Lionel train, I can finally press F2 and bring the circle all the way back. After all that time, I'm back where I started, and I am a happy man.
Glad to hear someone is happy. I haven't had the best summer so I'ma not all that happy. Oh, don't get me wrong. I'ma unhappy about things that should have changed and haven't. Not that being happy or unhappy was the intent of this discussion. I was attempting to take a look at the old school versus the new school and the cling-on's that rode the waves in. Oh, and by the way there are guys still playing with the three rail Lionel, Mike's TrainHouse and other name brands. You ought to see what the new throttles and DCC bring to their table.
Well, I was hesitant to reply to this fearing I didn't understand fully what your point is. I *think* I agree with you that it seems like model railroading is a lot of "3 steps forward, 2 1/2 steps back". (or even 3 1/2 steps back sometimes) I think we are way behind technology-wise, especially in the smaller scales like N and Z. My list....couplers, turnouts, signals, decoders, and other tech items like ditchlights and EOT's. I get that a lot of it has to do with the size of the markets, but I think that is more often used as an excuse versus the reality of it. I also think manufacturers do a poor job of showing value, even when it's there. And of course the constant griping about prices from people with 2500 freight cars doesn't help. At some level, you have to chalk up the dual-mode DC/DCC layout as being a challenge "not easily solved" simply by virtue of the vast combinations of layout configurations and how to go about wiring the various pieces. (and throwing in "older track pieces" to the equation) So having a little black box to solve this one-size-fits-all is probably never gonna happen, even though I do think a lot of folks would like to setup their layout like that. The good news is, there are dozens/hundreds of forums whereby questions can be asked and mulled over and worked out. I also think it's probably worth a communication with the manufacturers directly as well.
Doug, These forums that you refer to are a God Send. When stumped and that includes all of us, I was usually able to go to a member of TB, personal friends and resources like Tony's. We've never been without an answer or problem resolution. The only way I know to solve some problems such as Athearn's six axle trucks is to re-machine them. Wish I could get that across to them. The great rock and roll derailers. Sigh! But that wasn't the total focus of my attention. I've been noting that often times a person is asking a question about a new school product and get's old school problem resolutions. Wondering if anyone else is seeing the same thing? Do I dare say I've been quilty of doing the same thing. Geez, why didn't I say that in the first place. Focus here (and not a Ford car...either). Grin
My general thoughts on DC/DCC layouts are 1: Never ever ever use old Turnouts wink Ever...NEVER DON'T DO IT, LISTEN TO ME! STOP WASTING YOUR TIME. Just buy new. Yes they're expensive, but they're the most complicated aspect of trackwork, they're easily broken and not easily fixed will. I mean, I don't have very much money to devote to model railroading at all, so I get trying to save money, but using old switches on a DCC layout, this is not money well spent. 2: Build the layout like it was 2 cab DC with multiple blocks. If the layout is sufficiently large, you'll need multiple power districts anyway, plus it helps to isolate faults and of course, in the DC/DCC world, it gives you more freedom and flexibility. To the specific comment about needing to power off staging or any yard track. Well, you should be doing that with DCC TOO. Leaving your locos sitting there unused on powered track is WRONG. I won't say a bad idea, or not ideal or peddle it in some other soft spoken way. It is WRONG, DON'T DO IT! If an engine is going to be idle for an extended period of time it shouldn't be drawing power and it will if it's on a powered track. Having said all that, I'm curious about what you're talking about with regards to Athearn's 6 axle trucks? For one thing, Athearn has had at minimum 2 types of 6-axle trucks and gear towers. The old style from the 70s and before with metal truck side frames and the newer style starting in the 80s with plastic removable sideframes. If the wheels are gauged and the minimum radius is 22" like it should be, these trucks operate pretty much flawlessly which is why Life Like stole the design for Proto 2000.
I have an Athearn SD9 and used to have a pair of SDP40's (I think thats what it was) and they all ran better than most other locomotives I had. I still have the SD9 and I'd put it up against any other DC locomotive for pulling power and smoothness. Glides over imperfect track and rough switches with the best of them.
Maybe this sort of thing has always happened? We've had periods of time with technological change and other times without. Go back far enough and you can worry about: AC or DC, what voltage - 6, 12 or something else, 2-rail or some variant of third rail. CD controls changed over the years variable transformers, rheostats to transistorized throttles and momentum, all kinds of couplers to horn-hook to Kadee to generic knuckles, etc... Also look at how layout design has changed over the years. We've always had to figure out the best way to do new stuff. George V.
This is one time "Never Ever" works. I agree the older turnouts...ahh...did I really say that. Gosh darn YoHo, now see what you went and made me do...grin! I agree older "Switches" should never be used when putting in a new layout or you plan on operating with DCC... buy the new ones. About the six axle trucks in question. This isn't about any of the N scale locomotives. Although out of curiousity, I may get my N, FP45's out and check the trucks. This is about: The new HO, Athearn six axle trucks. It appears they are the old rock and roll engineering and machining from the past. The towers may have changed but the truck is a copy cat of it's former self. On my friends layout we were operating some brand new out of the box, AC units, purchased from a Internet LHS. At first, we thought we had track problems and I was able to clear up most of the track glitches. The darn things kept derailing and I couldn't get them to stay on the track. Finally out of frustration we placed the locomotive on a flat surface and I was able to rock the trucks backwards and forwards. The middle wheel is machined to be offset from the others. It sits lower then the others and doesn't float upwards. Just a reminder I'ma talking about an HO Athearn Six Axle Truck. We contacted Athearn and got what I considered to be a cordial response. Much appreciated. According to them I should be able to torque them and the problem will resolve itself. We've tried that and it hasn't. They've been kind enough to offer to send us new trucks and that's appreciated. I'm waiting on a response from the owner of the locomotives. Last I heard, he was talking about packaging them back up, to see if the seller would take them back. Or haul them off to a swapmeet and liquidate them. We shall see what happens next. Does that help? I should ask has anyone else had this problem and if so how did you resolve it? LOL well...it wasn't my intent to make this discussion just about this one issue. What else have you noted that has with stood the test of time and is still with us? Old school stuff that is still in the system...so to speak.
Best keep on learning, because that lets you decide if the new is better than the old. Hard to decide if you don't know how it works errr I mean is supposed to work. 60 years after I got my first electric train I'm still learning. BTW way back when (ca. 1955) I had a teacher who incorporated MRR in the class room, we were actually building our own transformers, had to figure out the number of windings for the primary and secondary side. Today they would call it applied math. If by chance you come up with some nifty way to do whatever, don't forget to let your buddies in on the secret. That's what moves the hobby ahead.
Here, here. I couldn't agree more. So, what have you noticed, the problems it may or may not have caused and how did you solve it?
Rick, I know I'm a youngin round here, but I bought my first 6 axle athearn 25 odd years ago. An SD40-2 in "cubscout" blue and yellow Warbonnet. Since then I've bought many more Athearn HO 6 axle locos with the standard trucks. I have never experienced that problem. The only thing I've ever done is break out the nmra gauge and true them up. Flawless runners from dash 9s and genesis 70Ms to wide body 45s 40-2s T-2s and on. Frankly, if athearn still made blue box, I'd probably never buy another brand.
Anyway, I wish I could offer a suggestion. I assume you've tried removing the plastic clip on the bottom and verifying the wheelsets are all set correctly.
Prices are up, rent is up, food prices are up...what else is new? Model railroading has gotten easier, kits are pretty much made by short run manufacturers and most in the hobby want RTR. Technology has advanced in the hobby...or has it? DCC was a breakthrough and it is now "commonplace" but there is still another frontier which is gaining acceptance by many modelers-radio control trains. I have mentioned this before on this site and got both "well, OK" and "get away". Just thought that I'd mention it again. Wireless operation (no wires to track) just has to be the future. There is interest with several dedicated r/c train websites and the r/c forum on another website has way over 100,000 views and hundreds of posts...and that is just one thread in the r/c forum. Somebody is interested. These are my opinions and since this is still America, I can have these beliefs...at least for the moment. W C Greene
I can't disagree with that thought that radio-control is in the future. That would require locomotives to carry batteries. I'm sure in the future that there will be batteries small enough to fit locomotives in various scales (especially N & Z) and be durable enough to survive multiple operating sessions. Downside would be having to handle locomotives more often to install and remove batteries periodically. I would imagine a system like that wouldn't be far different than the current DCC technology.
Radio control is a good idea. It would be advantageous to separate the power supply from the control system - contrary to DCC, where the power supply carries the control information. Even an intermediate system, with powered track and radio controlled equipment, would be an advancement - and no batteries would be needed.
Now this discussion is off and running. Thanks for the come back and don't stop now. YoHo, Like you I had a fleet of the HO Athearn SD's and they all had the same offset center wheel. I called Athearn, back when and talked to them about this and was told there wasn't much they could do about it. It seems to me that SD's that came out after that had different trucks with less offset. Now we are back to the same old same old. Yep, I've checked gauge and even reset one of the wheelsets. The only thing I know to do is to remove the truck, take it apart and drill the center wheel bushings out... so the center wheelset will float up and down. Followed by: What will that do to the gearing that drives the wheelset? This could turn into a monumental project. It is what it is!
Back when I was still big-time in HOm (that is Meter Gauge running on 12mm track) I had this large 29x29ft layout to wire. One of the "features" I incorporated was the screw-type terminal strips - of course I stole that idea from the machine tool manufacturers (in my previous life I did 30 years of machine tool service). My buddies marveled at how quickly I can locate a problem as long as I just need to disconnect a few wires. In short none of that "lets solder it to the terminal strips" for me. Another one was installing switch machines as sub-assemblies; again disconnect the wires from the shorty strip, remove the two screws that hold the assembly in place and mount another one that works. BTW this was so good that one of my "buddies" (a fairly well-known MRR personality) after seeing this in operation on my layout submitted it as his own idea/design to MR. But my real buddies knew better and he got plenty to hear about that one from a great circle of friends. I steal a lot of ideas from the prototype, too. The proto for our garden layout - the Swiss RhB - is completely electric (11'000 Volt AC). For emergencies they can isolate certain sections i.e. switch off all power in a station or on a section of line. Since we run DCC (ZIMO) I decided to have the same scheme. At every station there's a subpanel with three toggle switches which allow to cut the power to the station and the two adjoining sections of the mainline. Makes trouble shooting dead simple and in an emergency one has that "extra" to stop a train. One will never need it until one doesn't pay attention to how much battery is left on that R/C throttle (don't ask how I know!). BTW I designed our garden layout that the "engineer" walks along with the train, a lot of the scratchbuilt turnouts have handthrows. Only the passing sidings have/will have turnout motors that can be controlled from the throttles or somewhere in the future by the dispatcher on the CTC board. Oh yeah, I always use industrial components; they cost a bit more, but you only buy them once.
