Hello All! My husband and I and our two kids (ages 9 and 11) are planning an Amtrak trip next June/July. We'll leave from Martinsburg, WV on the Cardinal into Chicago. Here's the question, is there any reason for taking the California Zephyr to San Fransisco (Emeryville, actually) to catch the Coastal Starlight, as opposed to taking the Empire Builder to Seattle and getting the Starlight there? Either way, we're making a big circle. Which ever one we take out, we take the other back. We had friends who said that you pass by some of the most beautiful scenery at night on the Empire Builder - going West. Going East, you pass through it during daylight? Same with the Starlight. Are they correct? The arrival times in Seattle and San Fransisco are certainly more convenient if we go East-West on the Empire Builder and West-East on the Zephyr. (We're laying over for three days in each city). I'd appreciate your input on this. Thanks, Kay
First off, Welcome to the Boards! I don't have my National Time Table handy but if you have one, look at the times listed for station arrivals in the areas you want to see in daylight. I know the CZ rolls through it's best sceanery in daylight, both directions, but I don't know about the other two. I can tell you this, The Builder is a cronic late runner. If time isn't your enemy, this should be no problem BUT, this may effect your sight seeing. Other trains you may concider are the Sunset Limited and the Southwest Chief. You can get back to Chicago from either San Antonio, TX on the Texas Eagle or New Orleans, LA. on the City of New Orleans if you take the Sunset. The Chief, an excellent on time performer with great sights to see along the way, goes straight into Chicago from L.A. via Kansas City. ------------------ Brent Tidaback, Member #234 BNSF Railfan-to-the Max and a N-Scaler to boot! "Ship it on the Route of The Roadrunners!" The Aransas Odessa & Western, a division of the BNSF
Kay, I would like to second Max's welcome and correct what I'm sure was a typo on his part. The Starlight is the train I'm sure he ment was the bad train for being tardy. The Builder is actually one of the best trains for OT as far as long hauls. I havn't been on the CZ so I can't advize you on that train. But as far as the other two go from my experince on these two trains is that if you travel during summer time and if the train is OT WB you should get to see the Park around dinner time as it arrives into Whitefish around 9pm. EB it leaves Whitefish around 630am and would be daylight thru the park even if the train is late. The Starlight is similar during summer days. NB leaves Klamath Falls at 8am and SB arrives KF at 10pm. If at all possible I would say ride the Starlight as long and far as you can especially true if you have sleepers, then you are able to use the Parlour car. Over all the Starlight is a much better train but you have to be very flexiable time wise. The poor timing on the Builder is that you go across the plains during daylight and come night time you enter the west and the best scenery. After 10 minutes of seeing the lay of the land WB out of Minot you've seen it all and there is not much change for the next 11 hours. My expertise is from Klamath Falls to Seattle and Portland to Minot. If I can help further let me know. Hopefully I've helped some.
No, it wasn't a typo. My Brother and his wife live on the Builders route south of Minni-Paul, MN. in Lake City. Every time they have tried to take the Builder to or from the Twin Cities, it has been VERY late. Two hours is typical, many times, much more. My Mother has taken the Train from here (Lincoln, IL.) to link with the Builder in Chicago. Three out of four times she arrived in Minnesota more than two hours late. If things have changed, this is good. But the last late report of the Builder came a few months ago from my Brother. ------------------ Brent Tidaback, Member #234 BNSF Railfan-to-the Max and a N-Scaler to boot! "Ship it on the Route of The Roadrunners!" The Aransas Odessa & Western, a division of the BNSF
Well Max all I can say is on my end that train runs about 90% OT but when it's late it's late. Comparing it to the Starlight is like apples and oranges. The Builder must have some padding big time WB because the 4 times I've worked the train in the last 2 weeks it has been OT into PDX. Also all 4 times I was OT into Pasco EB. Like I said before I know the Northwest, and can only guestimate on the rest.
Well, that just proves you know how to keep'em on the advertised! GOOD JOB my friend. I know nothing about the Starlight except the onboard service is supposed to be the best in the entire system. Anyway, I think this Young Lady and her family will have a great time regardless the trains taken. I envy them! ------------------ Brent Tidaback, Member #234 BNSF Railfan-to-the Max and a N-Scaler to boot! "Ship it on the Route of The Roadrunners!" The Aransas Odessa & Western, a division of the BNSF [This message has been edited by Maxwell Plant (edited 17 November 2000).]
Thanks guys! I heard from antoher bulletin board (from a travel agent, I think) that it's better to take the Zephyr WB. So where does that leave us? From the sound of it, either way is going to be a lot of fun. Schedules show the EB getting into Seattle in the early AM if we do the EB WB. If we do the CZ WB, we get into Emeryville in the evening. Then we have the bus to catch...it would get us to the hotel pretty late. The CS NB leaves Emeryville at 9:55 PM and arrives in Seattle at 8:25 PM. If we go SB, it leaves Seattle at 9:45 Am and arrives in Emeryville at 8:15 AM. The question is, which train gives us more scenery. It seems that SB would give more scenery.????? I know this is old hat to you guys, but we're really excited about this and want to see as much as possible! Kay
Oh no, any trip by train isn't old hat, each one offers something new! Of course, I am just a lowly "Foamer" of a Railfan and Model Railroader, Throtteljock is an Amtrak employee and gets a front seat view every trip. For him, this can be both good and bad. But you sit back and enjoy and let them do the driving. Have a fun and safe trip! ------------------ Brent Tidaback, Member #234 BNSF Railfan-to-the Max and a N-Scaler to boot! "Ship it on the Route of The Roadrunners!" The Aransas Odessa & Western, a division of the BNSF [This message has been edited by Maxwell Plant (edited 17 November 2000).]
Kay, I don't know if they told you or not but if you take the builder into Seattle WB you will miss the SB Starlight. So if you go into Seattle you will need to lay over a day there, or you can take the Builder into Portland and make the connection but you loose the scenery of the Puget Sound. It's really a 50/50 which way to go.
In my opinion, the eastbound Empire Builder has much nicer scenery. I haven't made the trip for a few years now, but that is how I remember it. You just get to see way too much of North Dakota on the eastbound Builder. In my experience, the Builder is usually on time...at least it is between Minneapolis and Chicago. If it comes in late (to Minneapolis), it is usually the eastbound, but this is still rare. The one noteable experience of the Builder being late that I can remember happened 2 years ago. It seemed that the train encountered some electrical difficulties somewhere in North Dakota and had to be turned around. It was kind of odd to see the train being led in by what would normally be the rear end. It was also kind of funny to see all the coach seats facing the rear of the train. Sorry about the tangent, but I had to reminisce. Have a nice vacation. ------------------ Andrew Suerth University of Minnesota Duluth Andy's Amtrak Photos
Thanks All! It definitely seems like the general consensus is that the WB Zephyr and the EB Empire Builder would be the best for scenery. HOWEVER, the times of arrival and departure are not great for a family with 2 kids. Ex- Zephyr into Emeryville at 6:10pm then the bus to San Fransisco. This is not too bad, but then the CS leaves Emeryville at 9:55 pm. Yuk...not a kid friendly time. And it arrives in Seattle at 8:30 pm. Again, not too bad, but not great. On the other hand, the WB EB gets into Seattle at 10:20 am, the SB CS into Emeryville at 8:15 am and the EB Zephyr leaves at 9:35 am. The times are the bug-a-boo. We are laying over in Seattle for 3 days and San Fransisco for 3 days, so connections are not a problem. Thanks everyone! kay
Either way you go, you can't really loose. My son & I rode the Builder this past Easter, it ran on time and the onboard staff was the best we've ever dealt with. I've ridden the CZ a number of times all yhe way, both directions, and I consider the west bd ride the best. Leaving Denver in the am gives you a real nice view of BIG TEN CURVE, and the rest of the Glenwood Canyon area. From railfanning a lot over the past few years, I know the OT rate of the CZ in summer is not too good! The Coast Starlight is just a great train ride! Have fun, Fred
Any route you travel should be fine. What you see along the way is going to depend on the time of year but I always enjoy the trip south from Seattle to San Francisco on the Starlight most of all. You can find more tips on the website at USA by Rail as well as details of John Pitt's new guidebook (highly recommended).
First, have been through Martinsburg a number of times and have always enjoyed the trip---on the Capitol between Pittsburgh and DC. Having experience on ALL the trains you mention , perhaps I can be of some assistance , too. Since you are traveling with kids, I think your main concern relates to the TIMING of arrivals into particular cities. To me it really does not matter which way one travels on the Zephyr. The schedule is such that the trains passes through the most scenic areas during daylight hours. BUT , connecting to the northbound Starlight at Emeryville is later evening---which is not "kid-friendly." Also, the Starlight arrives in Seattle later evening---even if it is on TIME. East-bound on the Builder is not a problem , time-wise from Seattle. SO ( my "two-cents worth ) goes like this: Even though scenery is best EAST-bound on the Builder , take the Builder WEST. The main advantage of THIS is the arrival into Seattle in the MORNING. Next, the Starlight SOUTH-bound. The main advantage here is TWO-fold: a morning departure from Seattle AND a morning arrival into Emeryville and San Francisco. PLUS , a morning departure on the Zephyr EAST-bound. On your return home from Chicago you did not mention whether you were going Cardinal or Capitol. BOTH have later evening departures from Chicago , so it really does NOT make a difference there. The only major "glitch" in the plan I suggested is that I suggest the Builder WEST-bound. There is no doubt that the BEST scenery from the Builder is EAST-bound. Not only does it pass through the Rockies in the MORNING hours , but you also get to enjoy the beautiful ride along the Mississippi River southbound from Minneapolis (which you MISS if you take the Builder WEST.) BUT, like I said , you MAJOR concern must be your young family. I STILL think you will enjoy the Builder WEST-bound. You MAY miss most of the great mountain scenery through Glacier Park , BUT there is also some GREAT scenery the next MORNING through the Wenatchee area and the Skykomish National Forest with its rugged mountains , AND , of course the beautiful approach into Seattle pass the Puget Sound area. Please e-mail me if you would like any more "tips". I have extensive knowledge of ALL the long-distance routes and would be delighted to "share" with you some more. By the way, I presume your trip is planned for the summer of 2002 ??? I ask this because presently, there has been a complete service disruption between Chicago and Minneapolis due to the flooding of tracks along the Mississippi. Empire Buildr passengers were being BUSSED between Chicago and Minneapolis (a six and one half hour ride.) I do not know how LONG these disruptions will continue. BUT , if you are planning the trip for THIS summer you should be aware of the possible disruption. South from Minneapolis , the tracks used by the Builder "skirt" the Mississippi River. It is a BEAUTIFUL ride to enjoy----BUT, if the river is especially high due to flooding , parts of the track become completely submerged thus forcing a closure to all freight and Amtrak traffic. Not only does the water have to recede, but the track must be re-inspected and fixed if there is any damage. This often takes some time---and there seems to be no detour that Amtrak can use. So one must be aware of this flooding possibility during late spring. So if your trip IS planned for THIS spring, I would check with Amtrak to be certain rail service IS available between Minneapolis and Chicago. Please keep in touch if you need me. JOHN
John - Thanks for the tip on the track situation. In fact, we are going this summer (June 26th - July 9th). I booked last January after all of the info from the other helpful trainboarders. We are going west on the Zephyr and east on the EB. We decided that the kids are old enough to handle some evening transfers after having taken them to Ireland last year and Panama this winter. They did VERY well. I will call Amtrak and check on the rail situation. However, at this point I think we're stuck. I guess we'll just have to call it part of the adventure. Thanks so much for your help. Kay
Kay, Hopefully by the time you board the Builder east-bound , the track will be open down from Minneapolis to Chicago. Over-all, your trip plans sound great. You will love the route of the Zephyr. The scenery is absolutely breath-taking !! I suggest you sit the RIGHT side of the observation car for the trip west. As the train leaves DENVER, you want to get to the observation car for the scenic climb up into the front range of the Rockies. Next day, claim seats in there as the train departs RENO for the best views---again, right side. You will also enjoy the Starlight. Plan to enjoy the private Parlor Car just for first-class passengers. East-bound on the Builder you will enjoy the ride along Puget Sound leaving Seattle, and the climb up into the Cascades. Next morning the ride through Glacier Park is wonderful. Sit the LEFT side for BOTH of those areas. Leaving Minneapolis, you should also enjoy the ride along the Mississippi River. LEFT side, again. Over-all, your trip sounds like it will be a great deal of fun. Enjoy. JOHN
Kay, I also forgot to mention that east-bound between Seattle and Spokane there is NO "observation-car" on the Builder---but ONLY for THAT portion of the trip. WEST-bound , the Builder "splits" at Spokane , with the DINING-CAR going to Seattle and the "OBSERVATION-CAR" going towards Portland. EAST-bound , the "two" trains meet again at Spokane during the late nite and the two cars re-connect for the rest of the journey back to Chicago. JOHN
John - Thanks again for the info on seating!! Luckily, even if we don't get the best observation car seats, we have the "family room", so we have a window on both sides of the train. Also, we intend to make FULL use of the Starlight parlor car (particularly during the wine tastings!!) I checked with Amtrak and the tracks are still closed between Minn and Chicago with no scheduled date for reopening. We'll keep our fingers crossed! Thanks again. Kay
Kay, hope everything goes well for you and your entire family on this trip. Of cours you know we are all expecting a detailed account of your adventures when you return...........
Kay, I have heard that SOME amenities are being dropped from the Starlight. If I am not mistaken, the on-board entertainers will be the first to go. I also heard that MAYBE the wine and cheese tastings will be another "cut" , but I am not certain. Anyhow, just the Parlor Car itself is a real treat. ALSO, I read somewhere that the tracks between Minneapolis and Chicago might be open by May 11th---also this DOES sound a little "early." I would suggest you keep checking with Amtrak. JOHN
