I have two questions about the Athearn flat cars: 1. Brakewheel stand: The Athearn 40' and 50' flat cars have a brakewheel stand (e.g. as you can see here). So I was searching the internet for some original photos of such flats, but I couldn´t find one. I just found photos of flats with a simple upright brakewheel. I´m wondering, if these brakewheel stand flats really exist, or if Athearn just did a bad job with the conversion? 2. Heavy duty flat: Athearn offers a heavy duty flat, like this one. I was also searching the internet for original photos of flats, which look like the Athearn one. But I also couldn´t find one. So, again the question: Is there an original? I wanna run a military train, which is as realistic as possible, on my layout, and I´m thinking, if I can use this two types of Athearn flats to put my HMMWVs (40'/50' flat) and Abrams (heavy duty flat) on it, or if they are not close enough to the original flats. Thanks in advance for your help.
Those two flatcars represent cars that are really old and probably would not be appropriate to run with modern equipment like Hummers and Abrams tanks. The flatcars in these photo by Tom Stolte would be more appropriate: Athearn makes 60 ft flatcars but not with DODX reporting marks. This link will show you all of Tom's DODX flatcar photos with military equipment
You will notice that the flatcars above have six wheel trucks. See the Last Arial blog for close up photos of these trucks. Apparently these DODX cars are 68ft DOD Heavy Duty flat cars. See more info here: Global Security Org. Look at table 20.1 on the above page. They mention the use of standard 60 ft flatcars with Trailer Train (DTTX, HTTX, OTTX, etc) reporting marks. The HTTX cars have the same capacity as the DODX cars but are probably not long enough for two Abrams tanks. This site also gives you tie down procedures for securing the vehicles. Trainweb.org has some photos of military equipment on flatcars using Trailer Train flatcars.
Woohoo... that´s a lot more information, than I expected! Thanks a lot!!! :thumbs_up::thumbs_up: I just saw that some newer products, which Athearns shows on its site, have a feature called "Tech&Spec". There you can see some details about the product, and there (sometimes) they name the era of the car. The era of my flat cars is 1960-1980 and the era of the heavy duty flat is 1940-1960. Damn, why didn´t they had this feature a couple of years ago, when I bought my first cars? So, but I´m not quite sure if the era is just the period of time in which the cars were manufactured, or if it is the era in which the cars were in service with the railroads. But nevertheless the military train I wanna run is supposed to be a "Desert Storm"-era train. As I live over the pond, and due to fact that Desert Storm has taken place about 17 years ago, it´s hard for me to get some useful information about this era today, and especially about (loading and unloading) military trains during this period of time. By the way, I have a Athearn heavy duty flat, which is painted in the yellow TTX scheme. Now, that I have some information about this car, I can´t imagine, that TTX ran this HD flats (era 1940-1960) in their yellow scheme. But I bought it a couple of years ago... I´ll be damned... I´m absoluletly fascinated of the US Railroads, that´s why I bought that Athearn stuff a couple of years ago, and today I finally have the time to start with an layout or at least a diorama. But as you see I´m an absolutely freshman on this topic till now. But I try to change this from now on, that´s why I joined this forum...
I remember watching a military train just after Desert Storm. Power ( I think GP38's) was DW&P (Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific which was a subsidiary of the Canadian National) diesels and there was a Paducah and Louisville caboose on the tail end. A couple of soldiers were in the caboose and they saw us and asked us: "where are we". Then they waved their beer bottles at us as the train pulled away. Most of the train consisted of engineering equipment like dozer tanks and tank retrievers and bridging tanks. There were some Hummvees on there too along with assorted tankers and articulated trucks. The train was crossing the Oliver Bridge near Superior, Wisconsin, entering Wisconsin from Minnesota. No idea where they were going. Maybe Fort McCoy in Wisconsin? At the time, The DW&P had connections to the Wisconsin Central in that area. I've got the whole train on video tape somewhere. I will have to dig it out and see what kind of flatcars they used at the time. I think they were mostly 89 footers. As far as loading and unloading, I think they did it circus style with ramps between flatcars just as mentioned in the global security web page that I mentioned earlier.. Model railroad manufacturers often paint a lot of cars in popular schemes, whether a prototype existed for it or not. If you are concerned about authenticity, then try and model from actual photos. If you just want to portray the flavor of the train, then no one is going to say anything if you use some modeler's license. The main thing is that you are having fun
Hey Smithie, Every military train should have this unit on its lead UP SD40-2 No.3593 with its Desert Storm paint job. Microscale makes the decal set. From Railpixs.com Also check out this URL Scroll down the page till you see "Military Stuff" Fired up yet? Then see this.
Those Athearn cars doesn't really have a prototype but is base on a Eastern design according to Jim Hediger's "How to model super-size loads" in the July(2008) issue of MR.
I can tell you how NOT to unload a military train hauling M1 Abrams tanks. My old platoon sergeant told a us about unloading M1s in Germany after Desert Storm (this while we were rail loading our equiptment @ Ft McCoy WI in preparation for OIF) The train came into the dock a little too fast and hit kind of hard, the impact snapped every chain holding the tank and it rolled off the car and down the ramp luckily no one was injured. The investigation revealed that the tank did have the correct number of tie down chains but I guess like Sir Isaac Newton said an object in motion (70 ton tank) tend to stay in motion :tb-tongue:
I´ve been busy the last days, that´s why I´m answering so late. @ Dee Das: Did you look up, which cars they used in the military train, you saw? I´m not really concerned about authenticity... well let´s say, I wanna run a train, which COULD have existed. That means, I wanna only take cars for the train, which really existed, and which possibly (COULD) have been used in existing military trains, during the Desert Storm era. I already have the "Desert Victory" in my stock. Athearn made a model of this a couple of years ago, but it´s discontinued. This was my first engine, and the beginning of my idea of modeling a military train and the beginning of my fascination of US railroads. @ brakie: That means, that the HD flats (or even the "normal" flats, too?), likes these Athearn offers, never existed? By the way, what do mean with "Eastern design"? @ gijim2k1: Luckily no one was injured. I wont imagine, what could have happened... One of my most important questions is, if the military trains are always just loaded/unloaded by the A/B ends of the cars, of if the equipment also could get on the cars by the "sides".
Yes, I did find the video. Power was two CN SD40-2's At the head of the train were two CN, a UP and a BN auto rack (four total). The other cars were Trailer Train 89 ft flats and GTW 89 ft flats and a few 60 ft flats. Most of the cars were in the ITTX series (the majority) and there was one TTDX car. The train slowed near the end and I did get a few numbers. OTTX 90187 (60 ft) HTTX 92803 (60 ft) ITTX 954665 (89 ft) GTW 303625 (89 ft) At the very end of the train were another two Trailer Train auto racks numbered: TTGX 256000 (bi-level enclosed) TTGX 155253 (bi-level enclosed) The caboose at the end of the train was a Paducah and Loiusville caboose (PAL 9604) I think Brakie means those two cars that you specified in your first post.
I must thank you, Smithie. Looking through those old videos took me back in time. In one segment, just before the military train was a short section where I was shooting some MOW equipment. I can hear my daughter talking to me the whole time that I was shooting. She was about three at the time so I would put this segment at about 1992 or 1993. She is in college now and has moved away from home. It was absolutely fantastic hearing that little voice again. Cherish every moment, people. They grow up very quickly.
unloading off the side It can be done, preferrably with lighter vehicles. Unloading a tank that way is likely to result in a derail, it's far better to just wait your turn and drive off the end. If for no other reason than safety, there's also the potential delay at a "choke point", (the rail head) and tearing up a valuable asset, it's just not done without significant justification. Bad JUJU.
One more time I apologize, that it took that long to answer! I´m sorry. @ Dee Das: Thanks for this information, that helps me a lot!!! Now I know, that I should use 60' or 89' flats for a authentic train. So, I will use my HD-, 40' and 50' flats for other stuff. Maybe for one or two small separate dioramas. Time will show... @ Helitac: I was aksing, because I´ve seen a picture of unloading a train off the side, where German or Austrian (I´m not quite sure where it was) "Leopard 2" MBTs were unloaded that way. And the "Leopard 2" has nearly the same weight than the M1. During the Cold War era the German Army trained how to unload a train in an emergency/combat situation having no station or ramp. With other words: How to unload a tank, if you are in the middle of nowhere and have no ramp. It was quite easy. Turning the tank on the flat (!!!) about 90 degrees and just accelarate!!! But it was just a one-time thing, because the unloading caused a lot of damage on the tracks, the decks of the flats and a derail of several flats. But for sure it´s a difference if I get off a flat carefuly and real slow at a ramp, or if I get off at full speed "jumping down" in the middle of nowhere.
Smithie, I was thinking more of easing off the side at an "L" shaped ramp similar to Grafenwoehr. But in an emergency do what works! Might be better to lose a train than a train and an armored unit.
I already got it (that you talk about an L shaped ramp), after reading your first reply. This story about unloading a tank in the middle of nowhere was just a story that I wanted to tell, because I thought it fits... more or less. But back to the L shaped ramp: If I really got it, you mean that unloading an Abrams off the sides of a flat could cause a derail. I could do it with lighter vehicles like HMMWVs or maybe M923 trucks, but not an M1. Or did I misunderstand you? My answer was just, that I saw a picture of German (or Austrian) "Leopard 2" getting off the sides, and that a Leopard 2 has nearly the same weight than an Abrams. Should mean: Are you sure that unloading an Abrams off the side would definitly end up in a derail? Is it absolutely and definitly not possible to unload an Abrams off the side? Or is it just "not common" doing it this way? But as you mention the L shaped ramp: It´s exactly what I thought of, planing my diorama/layout! I wanna model a L shaped ramp and was thinking if a L shape ramp is authentic for a US military train in the States! I think you can model a much more intresting loading/unloading scenery using an L shaped ramp, than just unload your vehicles off the A/B end. In Europe (at least in Germany, Switzerland and Austria) these L shaped ramps are absolutely common, and modeling a US military train in Europe, it would be no problem using a L shaped ramp, but I wanna model a scenery of loading/unloading military equipment in the States. Maybe I should have asked at once if an L shaped ramp is common for the states... I´m sorry... my fault...
No Sir , I think you got it right, unloading off the side is possible with a tank, but no turning once you actually touch the ramp,be very gentle. Wheeled vehicles were much more commonly done this way, the weight and power of an MBT can cause problems if things start to move. (one track on the ramp and one on the flatcar).
That´s clear, that an unexperienced driver can cause serious damages on the ramp and the flat, if he´s not able to handle a 1500 hps, 70 tons MBT properly. I just wanted to know, if it is theoretical possible to do it this way, or if it is absolutly uncommon. But if I got it, it´s, also common in the States using L shaped ramps to load/unload wheeled vehicles off the sides. I´m asking, because I never saw a picture of loading/unloading vehicles off the sides in the States. But I have to admit, thats it´s generally more than difficult to find pictures of such a loading/unloading scenery of military equipment. Unfortunately...
Most of the railmoves i was involved with we went off the A-b end, i'd guess 90+% of the time. But sometimes things break, keys get lost,and who knows.Wheels need a couple of portable ramps and a few guys and your outta' here.
So, to reconfirm: -> (if I interepret your answer the right way) L shaped ramps also exist in the States. -> It´s not common to get off the sides, but it´s theoretical possible. Now I just have to look, if I can find some pictures of such a "US L-shaped ramp". Thanks a lot for your help! You really did me a favor!
Smithie, a couple more thoughts: Military bases in the continental U.S. are usually pretty big. The major armored units are pretty much able to conduct gunnery exercises w/o leaving the base. Not like the cold war days when I was in Schweinfurt and we railed to Graf, Wildflecken, and Bergen Hohne routinely.( I know of a few exceptions to both cases ). So my guess is it's more common here to see new stuff being shipped rather than a unit deploying by rail to another base in the US. (again I know of some exceptions). A loading dock's a loading dock, I know of a few on the west coast that are L shaped and serve a military base. Post some pic's, when you get to it, military rail ops aren't all that common. Enjoy your self, Bobby.
