Bruce and All, This has been a fascinating thread, chock full of great info and history. But you touch on a point that I was contemplating starting a new thread on. This seems like a better spot to do so. Kato has chosen to paint their Alco PA's in what I would call more of a salmon color when compared to the bold red of the F3's and F7's. My question was going to be 'Was this intentional? Were prototypical PA's painted in this color? Or has Kato's paint 'turned' or faded?' In railfaning photos it appears that some PA's were indeed this lighter red than the traditional ATSF Warbonnet color (or is this just the effects of faded color photos from 50 years ago?). On the other hand, other railfaning pics seem to show other PA's cloaked in the darker Santa Fe red (or are these simply color-enhanced?). Oddly enough, even Kato's own promotional photos display an inconsistency in color: RED SALMON(ish) Mistake? Or Accurate? Thanks All!
It depends on the age of the locomotive as when it was photographed. The 1X1 foot scale could be seen running around in various shades of red. As far as Kato, there is some difference in coloring depending on what production you are looking at. Or is it so late that I'ma thinking about the difference between Kato's first run, ConCor's and then the last run by Kato, as well as ConCor. Never mind. The coloring is correct...depending on the aging of the locomotives in question. Does that help? Me thinks it's time to give up, call it a day and get some sleep time.:uhoh:
Thanks Rick. It does bring up a few other questions though. Several railroads were known/remembered for their signature color choices. SP Daylight Orange/Red, PRR Brunswick Green, Great Northern Green/Orange. And some modelers are rabid about the accuracy of the colors chosen by a modeling manufacturer with heated debates regarding the hue/tone of the paint used. Are you saying that ATSF did not have one signature tone of red that was used on all of their streamlined locomotives? Secondly, is Kato modeling specific locos at specific points in their lifespan? With the exception of intentionally 'weathered' products, it has always been the assumption that a locomotive or piece of rolling stock was being released in it's original factory-delivered condition. Any weathering/aging was up to the hobbyist. Did Kato release some of these PA's with this salmon coloring with the intent of representing "aging"? Or were these PA's actually delivered by Alco to ATSF already painted in this tone of livery?
Back at it again, let's see what issues did we create last night? Oh dear we got's us a hold of a technical geek, rivet counter. No offense meant...I think! You'll see you aren't alone in the next paragraph. Glennac, What I was giving you, was justification for the various shades of red. There isn't, never has been a toy train manufacturer that has gotten the official Santa Fe RED correct YET! So, I look at it as... various shades due to aging or fading. This allows me to run my rainbow of Santa Fe locomotives with out my sphincter's getting anally tight and having a feco lith occur in the circle of willis. I hate it when a brain fart blows through my rear. If you get my drift. Like you and others I find it absurd... that they can't get it right. Is there smoke coming out of my ears? I just lifted the safety valve off the old boiler. I will need to take the next siding and cool down a bit. Perhaps, this might help. If you don't like the color then take it out to Barstow, Ca., and sit it on a fence post. Leave it for, oh say a week and when you come back the paint will have faded looking just like a bunch of Santa Fe's worn out fleet. Does that help the cause? Gosh!
Sorry, Rick. Didn't mean to cause you to blow a gasket! :cute: I am perhaps not so much a 'rivet counter' as I am one that is fascinated with the history of things and the "story" behind the outcomes we see looking back. If Kato (or other manufacturers for that matter) are accurately reproducing proto-typical anomalies, I'm intrigued by the possible "story" behind that. Did ATSF specifically pick this color when ordering the PAs from Alco? If so, why change from the red applied to the FT's and F3's already running at the time? On the other hand, did Alco screw up and apply the wrong color on originally delivered units? Did ATSF simply accept these units without requiring a change? Was there a plan to use a different shade of red in the warbonnet to differentiate locomotive manufacturers? (Probably not. Why is Kato's ATSF EMD E8's always seem darker than the red used on the EMD F3's & F7's?) Were ATSF paint shops free to use a variety of reds when painting their streamlined power? Or, has Kato simply screwed up and used a paint that could hold it color? Naturally, color choices among hobby manufactures is going to vary with quality and the amount effort they put into research. But if even Kato can't seem to settle on one warbonnet red does that mean ATSF also had the same inconsistency when releasing new equipment to the rails? Does that also mean there was never really any official 'Warbonnet Red' for ATSF, in contrast to other railroads' devotion to certain color hues and combinations? In reality, I'm a "close enough" kind of guy. And I have hardly remained accurate to prototypes when it comes to my own modeling. Again, it's not so much a demand for accuracy, but more a curiosity regarding the "story" behind the choices that were made and the differences we see today as we look back in hindsight. EDIT: Oh, and why a different warbonnet shape for each model of locomotive? (Not completely convinced with Wikipedia's answer to that one)...Oh, Wait...I see you turning red again...Never mind! :wink:
Some times the paint ordered and applied by the builders did differ from what was delivered an applied by the ATSF. However, the freshly applied paint did not differ as much as the spectrum of colors that have come down from the model manufacturers. The paint did weather and fade on the prototype and probably at one time or another match most of what is on the models. In the early years, the ATSF was very good about repainting the faded red but in later years all bets were off. I saw some awful looking red war bonnets in Texas in the last years before the Fs were cycled through the shops at Cleburn.
Looks like Russell, beat me to it. Allow me to add the following. Paint could and would vary from the various builders of the 1X1 foot scale aka prototypes. Alco was known to paint their PA's, loco's with a darker red then for example EMD's F Type units. Creating a variance in shading. What they would do is park them at Barstow, Ca., until all the shades faded into a match. :teeth: Your last question. The original Santa Fe FT's was delivered with the longer war bonnet. At some point, date unknown to me but the war bonnet was shortened, as was visible with the delivery of the F3's and F7's. Why? I don't know. Most of these kinds of decisions were and still are made by the sitting...ahh...I mean presiding president. Probably because some green horn accountant, trying to make a name for himself, picked up the phone saying they were spending to much money on this frivilous paint scheme. There is a variable here. Kansas and San Bernardino shops did get orders to repaint some of the blue pin stripe FT's and F3's into the passenger red and silver, warbonnet scheme. Some of these had the shortened war bonnets. It was said, they were also regeared to and for high speed passenger service. Does that help?:angry: LOL These faces are...well...obnoxious. You've asked some good question and I hope we answered them to your satisfaction. Reminds me of my nephew and his 100 questions...before he falls asleep. Why, this, why that and why this if you don't have that.No offense meant. Grin!
THANKS Rick & Russell. Most interesting. If I ever come across more specific information, I'll try to remember to post it here. Thanks again! Glenn
You are welcome from me also. Rick and I have fun stumbling over each other trying to be first to post an answer to Santa Fe questions.
Locomotives are supposed to be black..... Admittedly ours is (except for the tender) rust colored. But we still have the skin off. Lots of fun here, looking at the grand kids. Regards, Kevin
