ATSF ATSF Slogan / Map Box Cars. Do I Have This Right?

glennac Jun 8, 2020

  1. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    Lacking Hendrickson’s books, I figured I would ask the ATSF experts here. Do I have the following timeline and the Slogans / Map / & “Ship and Travel…” features correct?

    1941-47: Slogans & CL/SL Maps

    * The Super Chief to California (Stylized “Super”)
    * El Capitan - Coach Streamliner to the West
    * The Chief - Famous Daily Streamliner West
    * The Grand Canyon Line (Bold “Grand Canyon”)
    * The Scout for Economy Travel West

    1946: “Scout” slogan dropped. Service ended 1949.

    1947-58: “The Route of…” Slogans / “Ship and Travel” (Maps replaced)

    * The Route of the Super Chief - all Pullman Chicago-Los Angeles Streamliner
    * The Route of El Capitan - Only all Coach Chicago-Los Angeles Streamliner
    * The Route of The Chief - all Pullman Chicago-Los Angeles Streamliner
    * The Grand Canyon Line (“Grand Canyon Line” together on a single line)

    1948: “Texas Chief” slogan introduced.

    1954: “San Francisco Chief” slogan introduced

    1956: “The Grand Canyon Line” slogan dropped.

    1959: Slogans dropped and large circle/cross herald introduced on freight cars with ‘Ship & Travel Santa Fe All the Way’ on both sides.

    I’ve got some follow up questions after this.


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  2. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    To illustrate what I want to clarify: Each image is either the System Map (1941-47) or the "Ship and Travel..." (1947-58) and the corresponding Slogans that were opposite during that era.

    (1941-47)
    Screen Shot 2020-06-08 at 11.23.27 AM.png

    (1947-58)
    Screen Shot 2020-06-08 at 11.24.40 AM.png


    Naturally, it took some time (many years in some cases, or never in others) to get the cars in to shop and repaint during the "Ship and Travel..." period.

    I'm wondering...were there instances where the new `47 "The Route of..." Slogans got applied but the System Map was retained and NOT replaced?

    Obviously, model makers have taken liberties with paint schemes over the decades. But for the most part, N Scale makers have attempted to remain true to the prototype where possible, particularly in this modern era. However, I have come across what might be regarded as anachronisms in N Scale. Where 1947 Slogans were paired with System Maps. For example:

    Atlas #50002333 USRA Steel Rebuilt Box Car. Santa Fe "The Route of the SuperChief..." with System Map opposite.
    Micro Trains #20022 Shrink-wrapped set:
    #20020 ATSF "The Route of the SuperChief..." with System Map opposite.
    #20030 ATSF "The Route of the Chief..." with System Map opposite.
    #20040 ATSF "The Route of El Capitan..." with System Map opposite.
    #20060 ATSF "The Grand Canyon Line..." (Later style) with System Map opposite.

    Oddly enough, MT #20050 of that same set appears accurate with 1941 "The Scout..." paired with the System Map.

    Of the dozens and dozens of other Slogan / Map / "Ship and Travel..." box cars that I have (MT, IM, Atlas, Holwedell Special Runs, The Rip Track, Roundhouse, etc) those mentioned above are the only ones that stand out as odd. Everything else appears to be true to their eras.

    My Question is: Is my assumptions correct? Or were there oddities during the 1947 transition period where slogans intended to be paired with "Ship and Travel..." got paired with System Maps instead? Or, are these cars sited above genuinely inaccurate? Thanks!
     
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  3. DFW Bill

    DFW Bill TrainBoard Member

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    I am not a ATSF expert, but after reviewing Hendrickson’s Painting and Lettering Guide, Second Edition (1998) and the SFRH&MS’s book on Santa Fe Boxcars by John C Dobyne 111, your comments and information are pretty much right on. The first era was 1940-1947 and the second was 1947-1959.

    In reading Hendrickson’s analysis it is clear there are some records that either don’t exist or are lost. So no one knows for sure how many cars were done at a time, which shops did exactly what. There are pictures and lists of 40’ and 50’ boxcars as well as reefers with certain paint at a set time. I would not be surprised if one side of.a car was repainted and for whatever reason the other was not. Also it is very rare to see a picture of both sides of a freight car on the same day. That is about the only way to verify your question. But it certainly could have happened.

    The questions of brake wheels, trucks, roof walks, different paint/finish on the roofs and cars with Buy War Bonds slogans is another story.

    My go to for great insight on the Santa Fe is George Hollwedel, for we both model in N scale the ATSF in the 1950’s, he is early 1950’s, I’m about 1955.

    You have a super memory, good job,

    Bill
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
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  4. locomcf

    locomcf TrainBoard Member

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    Dobyne's book has become my #1 reference for ATSF box cars during the '40s and '50s. If you don't already have it then I recommend that you get it.

    I'm not sure just how concerned you are about ATSF cars that are "genuinely inaccurate", but as Bill (DFW Bill) points out, there are several other factors that you might also consider. For example, which side of the car is the train slogan on? For all but Bx-57 cars it should be on the left side (the brake wheel end), but for the entire Bx-57 class (as delivered) it was reversed. Also (IIRC), the MTL cars you mentioned are nominally PS-1 cars lettered for class Bx-37 but the only 40' PS-1 cars bought by the ATSF were Bx-52 and Bx-57 classes. The differences are the sort of thing that only a rivet-counter might pick up on, but then again, most folks will not notice the irregularities with the slogans either.

    I agree 100%. George's knowledge and the cars that he has commissioned have both been a great asset to ATSF N-scale modelers. Now that he has retired he has stopped commissioning special runs and I will miss them.
     
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  5. DFW Bill

    DFW Bill TrainBoard Member

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    George is busy working on his layout which will feature the ATSF and the Southern Pacific in the early 1950’s, I think it may be 1951, but I’m not positive as to the year. Not only very knowledgeable about the ATSF but also the SP. He is a very nice person and friend.

    George can go into amazing detail and explain the differences between most of the ATSF BX Classes of Boxcars down to the last measurement. He told me about the difference between two classes of BX 40’ Boxcars, one was 10’4” in height, the other was 10’6” and said “would you change the mold as a manufacturer/importer for 2” in N scale”? Obviously not.
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
  6. georgeloop

    georgeloop New Member

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  7. georgeloop

    georgeloop New Member

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    I have never seen an actual picture of a Santa Fe slogan car that deviated from what is in the Santa Fe books. But one thing I can tell you is that the Micro-Trains 20020, 20030, 20040, etc series of cars are incorrect in that the Micro-Trains body is a PS-1 which was not produced until 1947. See the problem? NO PS-1 ever had a map! The BX-52 and BX-57 classes had the "Ship and Travel" slogans. This fact is what led to my first special run car in 2001. It was "Chief" BX-57 with the Ship and Travel slogan done correct by Micro-Trains with black roof and the slogans reversed from normal practice just like Pullman-Standard did.
     
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  8. georgeloop

    georgeloop New Member

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    This discussion seems to have started with the release of the Intermountain BX-37 boxcars. One item of note, if you are anally prototypical (who me?) is that many of those cars were equipped with National B-1 trucks. Of the numbers Intermountain released, any and all between 141317 and 142247 nhad the B-1s. There is no telling which, if any, of the "Texas Chief" and "San Francisco Chief" repaints may have had the B-1s. Only a photo can tell! That being said, Micro-Trains makes a dandy B-1, except they only offer it with the coupler attached. The last one I got also have the pizza cutter flanges, maybe that has changed. I have been cutting off the coupler, installing metal wheels and "fixing" my BX-37s as needed. Now, isn't that more than you need to know?

    Have fun, stay safe.
     
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  9. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    Howdy folks. Sorry for the delayed return. Have been recovering from back surgery (twice! In 4 weeks). So have kinda been out of it.

    As for PS-1 issues, yes I have been aware of that. More important to me has been the accuracy of the Slogan / Maps / & “Ship and Travel…” pairings.

    If what I have learned is correct MT royally screwed up their original 20020 - 20060 set placing 1947 Slogans with 1941 Maps. Then in 1985 when they released their follow up 20460 - 20510 set they flipped the errors in the other direction placing 1941 Slogans with 1947 “Ship and Travel… obverses. Somebody wasn’t doing their research.

    Yes, getting the new run of IM cars from George recently made me hunker down and figure out what I had that was accurate and not accurate. Below is what I have organized between 1940 and 1943. It’s my understanding that ATSF began the Slogan / Map series with the Reefers first, then the boxcars next.

    [​IMG]

    Headed to bed now and will get to the other responses tomorrow. One question I have at this point is - I can’t find any info on ATSF ever including the Rr-9’s that MT shows as painted with slogans.

    That’s folks. Looking forward to learning more about this topic and posting the rest of my 1945 - 1958 collection of Slogan cars. Much appreciated.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  10. locomcf

    locomcf TrainBoard Member

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    I don't have any of these MTL cars, but based on the photos in the ice reefers book put out by the SFH&MS the MTL car looks like it could be a good match. The Rr-9 cars were built in 1930, and the aforementioned book has a photo taken in 1943 showing an Rr-9 carrying the Grand Canyon Line advertisement. The book also mentions that during 1952 and 1953 the remaining Rr-9 cars were rebuilt into Rr-51 and Rr-53 class reefers.
     
  11. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

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    I have the last MTL Runner Pack
     
  12. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    Alright, here are the rest of my 1940 - 46 Slogan / Map cars that appear to be accurate. I will follow in a day or so with all of the 1947 - Onward Slogan / "Ship and Travel..." that I have in a somewhat chronological order.

    9983307D-D8C5-4BE6-A5C5-98235DB116DD_1_201_a.jpeg
     
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  13. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    Thanks locomcf! Yeah, I've been aware of the 'generic' PS-1 car that MT uses as a stand-in for virtually every boxcar they make. It's the Slogan / Map / "Ship and Travel..." pairing that has been at the top of my list recently.

    It's funny, back in 1985 when MT issued a new set of ATSF Slogan cars you would think that that would have been a perfect opportunity to correct their mistake in 1977 on the earlier Slogan / Map cars (1947 Slogans / System Maps). But No! They had to continue the comedy with a new REVERSED set featuring the 1941 Slogans and the 1947 "Ship and Travel..." (eye roll here). Only the Texas Chief and San Fransisco Chief in the 1985 set were correctly labeled.

    As for George, he has been a treasure to us modelers. Even his brief text descriptions on his jewel cases have taught me so much.

    Could you point me in the direction of Dobyne's book? I'm unfamiliar with that one. I recently picked up a brand new copy of Lloyd Stagner's "ATSF Color Guide" hoping it would be helpful in the absence of the Hendrickson books. But alas, it was just another box car picture book like Priest's "Santa Fe Freight in Color". Fun to look at, but not very helpful when it came to knowledge about the Slogan / Map/ "Ship and Travel..." quagmire.
     
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  14. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    YES! Thank you so much George for your initiative, hard work, and joy you have brought to us. I have truly appreciated exchanging emails with you and obtaining as many of your special run cars as possible. As you can see, many of my cars are from your efforts.
     
  15. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    More than I need to know? Not at all. Keep these tidbits coming.
     
  16. glennac

    glennac TrainBoard Member

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    Ah! That's helpful. Then I feel better about retaining the set in my collection.
     
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  17. locomcf

    locomcf TrainBoard Member

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    It was published by the Santa Fe Railway Historical and Modeling Society (SFRH&MS), as volume 4 of the society's rolling stock reference series.

    I've just checked their web site and it seems to be unavailable at present. But they have others from that reference series that may interest you:
    Vol 2 - Ice Bunker Refrigerator Cars
    Vol 3 - Furniture and Automobile Box Cars (such as your Fe-26 double-door cars)

    The society also published a "Santa Fe Railway Painting and Lettering Guide" which will probably provide the info you're after, but it is also out of stock.

    The society's book page is here.
     
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  18. Pastor John

    Pastor John TrainBoard Member

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    Don't forget that there are a bunch of websites set up to search for used and out of print books. My favorite is fetchbook.info, but it is currently offline for maintenance. I also have used Abebooks.com. They list this book from SFRH&MS: https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Bo...obyne&sortby=17&cm_sp=snippet-_-srp1-_-title4

    Which claims, "This new Volume on Santa Fe's modern box cars starts where John Dobyne's Santa Fe Railway Rolling Stock Reference Series Volume 4 Santa Fe Boxcars 1869-1953 left off."
     
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  19. Thomas Davis

    Thomas Davis TrainBoard Member

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    The following IMHO and IIRC....so make sure to do some research before spending money. The books recommended by locomcf are excellent resources.

    In general, if you want map cars, the IM cars are much closer to prototype than the MT cars. There are a few discrepancies even on the IM cars, but generally a couple N scale inches here or there, position of the tack boards, that sort of thing. The IM ATSF steel refrigerator cars are based on ATSF prototypes.

    On the MT PS-1 (frequently labeled as "standard" 40' boxcar), the 2 major distinctions from earlier cars (AAR and AAR modified) is that PS1s were welded, rather than riveted, and therefore do not have the vertical rivet lines common to 1944 and earlier cars. They also have a distinct car end, which is visually different from Dreadnaught variations. ATSF did have PS1s, but all were in Ship and Travel scheme, no maps.
    Likewise, the MT 50' car, while quite similar to FE-24s in terms of door placement and general appearance, is a PS-1 50' car. The IM 50' AAR car is closer to prototype for cars that carry maps.

    That said, the MT cars were a revelation to those of us modeling in N scale in the 1970s. I still have my original set, they have run on 4 layouts (soon #5) and MT has always done excellent lettering. They certainly pass the 3' test for me.

    Wood cars are another issue altogether. It is more difficult to identify the prototypes, and best advice I have is to compare to photos, and decide whether a given model is "close enough." For a unique ATSF prototype wood boxcar, check out the BX-3/BX-6 variations available from https://atsfnscalemodels.com/index.html . The kits are challenging (I am halfway through my first) but will yield an ATSF car unlikely to be confused with any other railroad. (None of these ever wore maps or slogans, as far as I know, but survived 40 years in a variety of services).
     
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  20. locomcf

    locomcf TrainBoard Member

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    Yes, indeed. During the 1980s and '90s I painted and lettered well over a dozen MT cars as SF box cars using Microscale decals and instructions. These days I wince when I look at them too closely, but fortunately none of my model train friends can spot their shortcomings. :whistle::rolleyes:
     

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