Hi all, especially Aussie's... I have been looking for Barge cement in Australia to try it out for gluing track to ties in handlaying. I first saw this method on the Central Valley Modelworks site. Unable to find any Barge, I phone 3M Australia and asked if there was any equivalent adhesive that can be mixed with MEK, and then used in the same way that Barge is on the CVMW site. After speaking with their lab guys the lovely lady on the other end of the phone told me that they did have one - M847 Scotch Grip that would do as I wanted. She is posting me a data sheet on the adhesive for further information. In the meantime I am going to grab some of the Scotch Grip and give it a try. I'll report back on my findings Cheers Bruce
The hotglue method didn't work for you Bruce? Or are you just wanting to experiment with something new? If you find something better then hotglue, please let me know.
Hi Bill Still undecided on any one method - I am a picky bugger The tests I did with hotglue of still holding firm but I haven't done any track laying since these tests - I have been giving some scratchbuilding a try. With that said I haven't given up on any of the methods I have tried so far but as I have never tried the contact cement method I thought I would add that to my arsenal. When I am done with this route I will make a decision on what I will go with. Whichever it is I am looking for the right method to speedily lay track that will stay put for a while Cheers Bruce
I'm thinking hot glue is gonna be about as fast as you'll get Bruce...reliably.... Most contact glues are 'touch it, its stuck', which can be pretty unforgiving, particularly the REALLY strong ones. Of course, you dont run the risk of melting ties though......
Yeah .. you don't want to use too much heat on the rail with hot glue. I don't think that any hot glue gun gets hot enough to melt plastic, but I don't think anyone uses plastic on hand laid track anyway. One might scorch a wooden tie while using a soldering iron to make final adjustments to gauge, etc though.
disisme Apparently mixing the glue with MEK (2 parts MEK to 1 part glue) holds it in suspension indefinately. You let it dry on the rail, place it and brush on a little MEK to reactivate, hold for a few seconds and bingo! the rail is stuck. I have yet to experience that though...
oooh...that sounds pretty neato actually. How about removal? Sounds like a fair chemical reaction going on...is there significant heat in that?
>>is there significant heat in that? I didn't notice any heat, but when I did a small test, I had a fan next to me blowing the air away from the glue, because that MEK just stinks.
I got my data sheets today. Here is what I posted to the handlaidtrack mail list: Got the data sheet today and it is referenced as 847, no "M" on the front. It's official name is Scotch-Grip Rubber & Gasket Adhesive. Looks like there are 3 types, 847, 847-L & 847-H. 847-L is Brown in color and uses Toluene, Acetone or MEK as a solvent. The other 2 only use Acetone. 847-L is a low viscosity grade adhesive for brush or spray application. Bonds leather, nitrile rubber (huh?), most plastics and gasket materials. One interesting paragraph is this one: ============================ 5. Reacivation: To solvent reactivate, coat both surfaces with adhesive. Allow to dry tack-free. Lightly wipe one surface with a solvent such as Scotch-Grip Solvent or MEK. Complete bond in 30 seconds. To heat activate, coat both surfaces with adhesive. Allow to dry completely. Reactivate by heating one or both surfaces to a minimum of 180F (82C). Assemble immediately (while hot), using firm pressure to ensure contact. ============================= Yup, sounds like Barge alright I can scan the data sheets and email to anyone interested. Maybe you U.S. based guys might be able to use it as a substitute. I haven't got any yet, probably tomorrow. Then I'll try it out.
Bruce, Nice investigative work. I 'm having the same issues myself. I haven't been able to find any Barge locally but have tried both Liquid Nails for Small Projects and Goop Household. Jeff at CVM suggested adding either the Goop or Liquid Nails to some MEK, about 50/50. Did just that but wasn't to encouraged about the bond. It seemed to hold but did seem to be a very strong bond. Maybe I'm missing something. Let me know how the Scoth Grip works? Matthew Shaw
Here's some more Well I have been doing more research on Scotch-Grip today. It seems that it is an industrial product only and cannot be bought in small quantities - 12 946ml cans is the minimum (In Aussie). It cannot be bought at the local hardware store. I did found a local NSW supplier, Adept Industrial Solutions, after ringing 3M again. Apparently there is another 3M product, Scotch-Grip 1300 & 1300-L. This, according to the data sheet, acts in the same way as 847 with regard to MEK. It can be bought in single cans BUT is AUD$53.52 per 946ml can...hmmmm. I also spoke to a rep at Bostik and he told me that any solvent based glue can be reactivated with MEK. He said to try Bostik Contact Bond, available at Bunnings in Australia. I think I will try this instead...
Hmmmmm ... Toluene... acetone... solvent ... sounds like it might be highly flamable Bruce, and I'd be leery about using something with strong fumes in the close confines of my railroad room :eek Thanks for the info tho.
I received a phone call from Anne-Maree of Adept industrial Solutions here in Aus and she had a couple of "samples" for me. This came about after speaking with Anne-Maree and me voicing concerns over buying a $53.00 can of glue for testing purposes. Anyway, I collected my samples today and low-and-behold I got a 59ml tube of Scotch Grip 847 and a 946ml can of Scotch Grip 1300-L - yes the same can that would have cost me 53.00!! So I can now go about my tests to see if either glue works like Barge cement when mixed and reactivated with MEK.... I will report back next week... Oh, and Bill.....they really stink too. It will be "interesting" to see what the smell combo of the glue and MEK is like (never mind the flammible combo ) Cheers
MEK? Your not talking about Methyl Ethyl Ketone Peroxide are you? Man, that stuff is so horribly toxic and a 'tissue destroyer' that I wouldnt even have it in my house any more. We used to use it as an 'ignition improver' for diesel engines (its like.....methanol for gas engines) and were concerned about how poisoness it might be so we called our poison information service. They said "Oh, dont worry about your 2 year old swallowing that.... He wont be able too because his mouth will be full of blood the second the MEKP touches it". We prompty disposed of every thing diesel and went with good old nitro...LMAO. Blowing ourselves up was never a concern!
