Battery run locos

MarkInLA Aug 8, 2010

  1. MarkInLA

    MarkInLA Permanently dispatched

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    Hey guys, I haven't been on (T)board lately. I saw a really toy-ish train set in a window which runs on batteries and has a remote control. What do you think about H0 and the rest going remote control with, say, NICAD rechargable batteries to power motor so NO power is needed in rails except for maybe signaling or switches ? Batteries could MU from a dummy diesel or in tender of steam. There could be isolated powered rail sections with 14 volts from a power pack on dedicated sidings or shops where locos would sit and re-charge as if 'taking on fuel'..Would the physics of it be that batteries would drain too soon from grades and rolling stock lengths and weight ? Wouldn't this be the ultimate in train running if it were possible though ?!! Pro and con replies appreciated...Mark
     
  2. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    Hi Mark,

    I think the biggest problem for running battery powered trains in HO or N is that the battery would take up too much space that could otherwise be raw weight, reducing traction and train length. Also, the cost factor would be right up there, if not more, than a standard DCC system, which is already highly developed.

    Probably the only equipment that could take advantage of battery power is short locos like switcher and critters, but even more so, the battery would take too much real estate away from possible weight.

    With properly cleaned track and properly operating equipment , most locos these days can creep along just fine, so again, battery power is mostly redundant as a back up source. Also, a small capacitor would take up much less space than a battery and provide the same power back up for going over turnouts or any type of track that might cause a power hiccup. By the time the capacitor runs out, the loco should already be far beyond the dirty track/turnout.

    I know they use batteries in larger scales like G Scale for out door running, but at a scale that size, the weight/traction issue is not really an issue at all.

    Last, all rechargeable batteries eventually die out, so that would add even more to the cost factor as frequently run equipment will need periodical battery replacement.

    If its not broke, dont fix it. DCC works just fine. :)
     
  3. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    Oh Mark and Mark, you need to get with the times.

    First of all, just as a point of reference, there's a pretty long discussion of wireless using track power in the DCC forum. I think it was a month or 2 ago. Things got really heated, but it might be worth reading.

    Now then, I suggest if you're interested in Wireless HO you look at the Aristocraft CREST devices. In addition to making G Scale receivers, they also make ones small enough to fit in an HO unit.
    One of the club members here has one that he bought put together. It's I think an Athearn (could be Kato?) GP35. The rear truck tower has been removed and a 9-volt rechargeable battery put in it's place. The battery could be a standard 9volt cell as will.
    The wireless receiver is about the size of a DCC decoder. It offers directional headlights.
    I've run my friend's engine fairly extensively and I've found it pull around 5 boxcars succesfully around the layout including some semi steep grades. It doesn't pull very fast obviously. But it isn't super slow either. Actually just about perfect.
    It uses the standard CRST wireless system.

    It's absolutely awesome. During our Sunday open house, I've gone through 2 batteries darting in and out switching cars on portions of the layout not doing roundy round. I don't have to care if the section is set to DC or DCC. Reverse loops? Reverse loop wiring? We don't need no stinkin reverse loop wiring! It's just great.

    If you wanted to do F units or some other permanent lashup, then you could use larger batteries and not loose the gear tower.


    I don't see this all as a replacement for DCC, nor do I see the other ideas put forth as a replacement, but it certainly does fit a rather interesting and fun nitch. It's easily the most fun I have on open houses.
     
  4. mogollon

    mogollon TrainBoard Member

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    There is plenty of interest in radio control. Maybe not here, but click on this link:
    http://freerails.com/view_forum.php?id=45
    Somebody is interested, there are over 40 thousand views in just one thread.
    Woodie
     
  5. MOPMAN

    MOPMAN TrainBoard Member

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    Here's mine in HO

    [​IMG]

    The two units on the left are r/c controlled. The GP35 is powered while the GP7 (to be detailed and painted) contains the battery (from e-flite helecopter) and a 27 Mhz Kyosho board (from r/c car). Yes the battery weight had to be offset with additional weight in the powered unit, but it will pull a dozen cars up 2 percent grades. I've had this unit in service for a couple of years. Here is a pic of the GP7

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Mike Sheridan

    Mike Sheridan TrainBoard Member

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    ... and in fusion power and warp drive, but the technology isn't quite there for everyday use - yet.

    As YoHo says this was all pretty beaten to death a little while ago, but it seems to me the nub of it is what you run. If you only have a few locos, don't need to pull big trains for long periods, are reasonably confident technically, and are running H0 or larger, then battery + r/c is definitely worth considering.
    For anyone else there are serious downsides, like cost, difficulty (this goes well beyond fitting a decoder) and practicality (you need to keep track of the charge state of each loco or have easily replaced batteries and a box of spares ... that you need to keep track of). (I can't even arrange for my battery drill to be a goer when I need it suddenly :( )

    As with DCC, I think it will need a reasonable level of manufacturer support before it becomes a usable solution for more than a small part of the model rail community. I'm not slamming battery + r/c, I was using it successfully in G/#1 scale about 10 years ago, but I don't think things have changed enough in that time to make it potentially mainstream yet.
     
  7. mogollon

    mogollon TrainBoard Member

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    As you say, "it has been beaten to death before". Yes, I have been called every name in the book so I will try to stay clear of this fray...and continue running my r/c trains as I have for almost 10 years.
    Have fun cleaning track and looking for short circuits.
    Woodie
     
  8. Wolfgang Dudler

    Wolfgang Dudler Passed away August 25, 2012 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    You can't have critters in H0 with battery power. So you can only have big engines. You have still to clean your track.
    Wireless control takes also some space. Less space for weight and so for pulling power.
    Therefore - not for me. I'm now into H0n3.

    Wolfgang
     
  9. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    As I said, or at least intimated. With R/C in HO, right now you're either dealing with switching engines with short trains, or permanent lashups of locomotives and a higher learning curve. I'm not poo pooing it, but man, the amount of effort is undeniably higher than DC or DCC. And there are plenty of people that would rather clean their track (or No-Ox is, or gleem it) than there are people that want to deal with the batteries.

    And that's to say nothing of features like sound.

    I really like the R/C engines I've used, but I just don't think we're 100% there yet.
     
  10. MarkInLA

    MarkInLA Permanently dispatched

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    I don't get it !! All I asked was can the entire hobby switch over someday to all battery powered locos and no one answer seemed to nail my question..I am asking : Can we have a model RR with completely dead track like the real ones (I call them Realroaders ) ? And if not ,why ? Some of you mentioned cost. But why would it be any more than some who have paid loads for digital (DCC) layouts ? No one responded to my idea of 'fueling areas' I.E. live rails where engines sit and recharge the batteries. These could be in round houses or sidings which can be turned on when used to recharge or off when rolling past it..You guys hit all the critter stuff and some RC talk. But I merely want to know the feasibility (<sp) of a complete RR running on battery power with radio control..Period !! Please just focus on this question..Is it good/bad/doable/lmpossible/absurd/etc.? IMAGINE no rail wiring whatsoever..No frog problems or turnaround loop problems.And most of all, NO stall-outs ! Like the REAL thing; trains on 'steel' rails going here and there freely....Thanks again for input pro and con..Mark
     
  11. Mark Watson

    Mark Watson TrainBoard Member

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    Yes.

    That sounds interesting. I assume G Scalers just pop off the shell and swap out a battery from a wall charger. In HO that's not as easy, so a fueling track might be more practical.

    I believe everyone gave a sufficient reply in response to this. Battery powered R/C is possible, however highly impractical for reasons said above.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 9, 2010
  12. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    A recharging station would be interesting. Though probably recharge would be accomplished via the wheels and that would present problems elsewhere with shorts...potentially.
    Now, this technology being developed for Laptops that charge without actually plugging anything in might be applicable.

    AS for not getting how the discussion went the way it did.

    One, We were presented with the notion that R/C HO doesn't exist now, that's just not true. It does exist, people use it all the time. Battery powered even. It's just not wide spread.
    If you want to discuss the future, it helps to understand the present.

    2: As was said, we've had a pretty raucous debate about this over the past couple months over in the DCC forum. I'd say what happened is you "Stepped in something good" as it were. Everybody has chosen their corner on this topic and is waiting for the bell to come out swinging.
    So trying to get us all to stop and think about it differently is a bit of a challenge.

    I think the biggest issues with a complete railroad running R/C is battery size. AS I said the 9volt battery in the GP35 I've used is good for an hour to an hour and a half of continuous use and involves reducing the pull power of the engine. Is that enough? It's really easy to swap out too, I'm not sure why Mark W. thinks it would be hard? It does require picking the engine up, though I don't think it would have to. And of course, a recharge station would resolve that issue.

    Anyway, I think the big issue (and this is something else that's been discussed in the DCC forum. ) is all the DCC functionality. Sound, light sequences. In addition to requiring more electricity, The absolutely biggest issue is going to be consisting. Such features require more complex signalling which may mean a more complex R/C system than is currently being deployed in R/C HO.
    Certainly its very possible to do such In essence by making the DCC signalling Wireless and I personally put a lot of thought into how one might do so...in the DCC forum.
    Which isn't to say we can't discuss it here and now, just saying, if you want a primer...
     
  13. sandro schaer

    sandro schaer TrainBoard Member

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    nope ! on an average g-scale loco the shell is screwed down with 8-16 screws. also disassembly of a loco is not that easy.

    usually the batteries are in a trailing box cars which in a lot of cases also holds the receiver of an aristo crest system.
     
  14. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    G scale has had this technology for years using battery power and is not really new to the G scale hobby but I have never seen it done on a smaller scale. Originally G scale trains used a small 12 volt battery which was pretty big and a trailing car such as a box car had to be used. Then came along Nicad batteries which made things more compact, but still pretty big. Now finally today. the battery power form G scale has advanced pretty far. Now we have lithium and Ion batteries which can fit neatly into a tender and we don't have to run trailing cars unless we need a pack to run long and heavy trains on a grade. There is still battery trailing cars offered for those who need to pack more of a punch for power. Whats neat about Lithium batteries is that they can be wired together in a parralell and series circuit at the same time to make the voltage and amperage that you desire. There is a company that specializes in battery power just for trains called Cordless Renovations. Here is the link > http://cordlessrenovations.com/store/index.php?cPath=131&osCsid=cbbf5c8841ce48cd2b33f958574770d2
    In the G scale world just about every locomotive made today has the capability to run on battery power, many are made with a switch to turn on battery power and a pigtail for battery hook up. All you have to do is choose the system you want to run it. Us G scalers have a few DCC systems & R/C to pick from out there that are commercially made.
     
  15. Wolfgang Dudler

    Wolfgang Dudler Passed away August 25, 2012 TrainBoard Supporter In Memoriam

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    I think the battery powered engines with radio control would be great. But for the next decades they are only for bigger scales.
    For me, it makes only sense if you can do this with all engines. And - like I've already wrote - I like critters too. So, there's for me a problem.

    Recharging is not a big problem. I've read about Miniatur Wonderland in Hamburg, they recharge their cars automatically. You could do this like servicing engines with water and coal.

    Wolfgang
     
  16. Mike Sheridan

    Mike Sheridan TrainBoard Member

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    Not if you change to G/#1 :)

    That's the road cars, right?

    The 'problem' with recharge stations is that different types and sizes of batteries need different charge regimes. Get it wrong and you could have a ruined battery, or worse. If all your engines use the same battery packs (same cell type, voltage, capacity) and you can be sure only one will occupy a station at a time then no problem really.
    But it's likely that over time you'd end up with a mix of different types needing different charge rates, etc, which means the charging station needs to get clever or the charger is carried on board (eg as part of the electronics pack (decoder/receiver)) so it's specific to the loco. In the latter case the track only needs a constant voltage on it, and in fact you don't need 'stations' at all - any piece of track could charge multiple locos.

    This is why I think manufacturers, and (ducking behind the chair) NMRA need to get in here because these little issues would be better dealt with at the factory and to some standard to ensure interoperability.
     
  17. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    In the Garden Railroad or G scale world both constant track power with DCC and Battery power is used. In the G scale world battery power is not a out of date technology, as a matter of fact it's growing in the G scale world since the introduction of Lithium and Ion battery packs. Battery power as MarinLA mentions gives you the real feel of running a train with no track power. Alot of G and F scale narrow gauge people use this because they say it's more realistic to real railroad operations. Battery power in the G scale world has advantages as well as it's disadvantages. The biggest advantage is that you don't have to worry about track corrosion or cleaning track when running trains outside. You don't have to keep your outdoor layout near any outlets and you don't have to run any under ground wires if you decide to run a outdoor layout with battery power. Alot of club members run battery power so no one has to worry about how much constant power to put to a track since some G scale accessories such as lights, motors, controls run on low voltage which is 12 volts and under and some run on high voltage which is designed for around 18 volts. So bringing your own battery power for your train keeps any damage from happening at a club event due to wrong voltage. Lithium battery power has many advantages over Nicad and lead acid batteries, cordless drills are now coming out in Lithium battery power.
     
  18. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Well, I don't get it either. Your question is essentially requiring an absolute yes or no. It is really unanswerable. We simply don't know, unless some day in the future... Possible? Yes. Will/could it come to pass? Nobody would know until that day arrived. Meanwhile, consider those guys who are modeling in T scale- Smaller than Z...

    Boxcab E50
     
  19. EMD trainman

    EMD trainman TrainBoard Member

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    Originally Posted by MarkInLA [​IMG]
    I don't get it !! All I asked was can the entire hobby switch over someday to all battery powered locos and no one answer seemed to nail my question..I am asking : Can we have a model RR with completely dead track like the real ones (I call them Realroaders ) ?
    ______________________________________________________________________________

    Can the entire hobby switch over to all battery power? Yes, one day if they wanted to and the battery technology advanced enough to make batteries small enough to use in smaller scales that were effecient and long lasting, but the question should be would everyone switch over to battery power and the answer is no. In G scale just about every locomotive made is capable of battery power and most are plug and play operation making it easier than ever to install battery power, but yet that niche of the market is still small, most still rather run track power.

    Speaking of battery power and real railroads, Norfolk Southern has bought new BP-4 switchers which are full battery powered locomotives with no engines. They claim them to run 2 full shifts on a single charge, however the 2,000 batteries it has converts horsepower to only 1,200 hp which they say is enough to move 3 to 5 cars at one time. Obviously they are being used in switching applications
     
  20. mogollon

    mogollon TrainBoard Member

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    Hopefully without causing any more ill will, I do have to say that here in the Dallas, TX area, there are several r/c operators who are completely satisfied with onboard batteries and radio control. Some are in HO, some on On30, and a couple in 1:35 scale (On30 on steroids). Most all use lithium-polymer rechargable batteries and with the exception of one who has a 2 unit diesel lashup, the rest have batteries in steam loco tenders or in the locos themselves. Run times vary according to use but from my experience, I am getting over 6 hours between charges. I don't run a round and round layout but a point to point with heavy grades and heavy cars and this gets run most every day. The layout I have is not suitable for track power and after running wireless, I will not consider track power as any future option. Some day, r/c may be embraced by the mainstream for it's simplicity and reliability...at this point, I really don't care any more. I (and others) will be having fun and that's what it's all about.
    Woodie
     

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