Has anybody experience building a Bowser steam locomotive? From what I can see off of their web-site it's definately a "build" project, with nothing ready to assemble. The quality of the finished product would depend almost entirely on the work you put into it. The big advantage I see is weight, since their all metal and cast they're guaranteed to weigh a lot more than the plastic ones, and should out-pull the plastic ones as well. Even though they say to do a couple before trying a Big Boy, I'm tempted to dive in and do one, modifying it to have two motors and maybe a smoke unit. Anybody have any experience with a Bowser kit? Feedback? Horror stories? Joys? Anguish? Mark
Bowser models are definately a Craftsman's project! They CAN be excellent models. Unless you are a precision tool and die maker, mold maker, Jeweler, or at least a precision machinist, and have some tooling available to use if needed, don't expect to make a Bowser Big Boy in under two years, painted and decaled, working of an evening. I have seen one done in under one year by a guy who was retired, who worked everyday, and finished it in nine months. He was a real craftsman though with a full machine shop! The castings are "Fine Sand" castings, so will have sand mold flaws occasionally, and the general surface will be rougher than any die cast (Zink) or injection molded (Plastic) part. The surface is a little rougher than a good "Lost-Wax" casting. It will take time to clean up. You will need to be skilled at patient filing, with a set of Mold Maker's rifflers, and polishing to make the model castings ready to start assembly. You must be Mechanic enough to know and understand how to "Make things" fit, and to tweek assemblies into working freely. That includes finding where something is binding, then knowing how to correct the problem. Tolerances must remain tight for even the simplest engine to operate well. You will have to "re-design" the coupler mountings to prevent electrical shorts, but only if you plan to use a metal coupler system. This could require some milling machine and drill press work. Always use the largest (Horse power) motor, or motors you can fit into these models. They are heavy, though not as heavy as the old lead casting Varney models. Plastic "U" joints and plastic gears usually wear out soon due to the added torque required. Mounting and fitting the drive wheel sets is extremely critical to insure that all wheels are parallel, square, and level in relation to eachother. It is extra work, but highly advisable to "spring load" or make a set of "Equalizing" links much the same as the real engine, to compensate for any humps or dips in one or both rails, especially at turnouts, to prevent derails. Bowsers are not designed to negotiate 18" radius curves or #4 turnouts well, although sometimes they can be made to operate them if run slowly. DO NOT remove any flanges, because the side play will allow those wheels to drop off the rail in tight places. By re-working the engine frame, you can remove most of the "hunting" loose wheel sets will generate. One big mistake most "First Timers" make, with binding side and valve rods, is they will drill out the crankpin holes over-size in the side rods, to correct the bind. WRONG!! This will throw a greater bind in the works when the engine starts pulling hard. Once done, it is almost impossible to repair. Instead, look carefully at the FRAME where all the drivers have bearings in the frame. Set the frame up on your milling machine table, and indicate it in to Zero in all dimensions. Then using a "Last-Word" indicator, verify that all wheel bearings are indeed in line to within .0025" max out of tolerance from zero. There should be no more than .0015" difference between the axle diameter, and the bearing inner diameter on each pair of wheels. While you have the frame in place, check each side rod set to insure that there is no more than .0015" variation in center to center distance of each crankpin hole, and that the holes are no more than .0010" larger than each crankpin diameter. Then check each wheel to verify that the crankpins are EXACTLY 90 degrees off-set. Now is the time to check for boiler fit (and mounting screw holes) in relation to the frame. Make any corrections necessary. Temporarily mount the motor to be sure the motor clears the inside of the boiler, and that there is room for the brushes and wires, so you do not have a short when assembled. (You should be able to slip three thicknesses of a magazine cover freely around the whole motor anywhere without any binding). Mill out any binding place in the boiler to gain room for the motor of course. When mounting the motor, be sure to only allow the recommended amount of back-lash in the worm-to-driven-gear teeth. You may have to dissassemble the motor and bush up any excessive end-play to prevent jerky action at slow speeds too. When you get to this point, you will want to dissassemble the whole thing, and blacken, paint, or electroplate each part, as required (for color), then re-fit everything to insure the thickness of paint or plating does not bind the mechanism. Once re-assembled correctly, you will be ready to check the fit to the boiler, again, and make all subsequent alterations only to the boiler and other parts to complete the engine fit up. Its quite time consuming and you must be patient. A quality job is well worth the time invested! You will have created a new BRASS engine worth every bit as much as any BRASS engine on the market today. If you get impatient, it will end up a costly piece of junk to your way of looking at it, and most appraisers too should you or your heirs try to sell it. It is no more difficult than building one you want to scratch-build, or kit-bash, and do a good job. Just take your time and think things out before you start hacking and hewing at it when you get tired. Your feeling of accomplishment and seeing it run well is far more than it will ever be worth in dollars! But remember you will truthfully be able to say, "I built this!" People who simply buy BRASS can not take any credit for their engine. Afterall, now YOU can look down on THEM! It does get tiresome when THEY try to look down on YOU! BUILD IT, you will enjoy every hour you spend! No one can ever take THAT away from you, then photograph it. You will also have a much better understanding of what it takes to build a really good model, and why they cost so much! You are paying for their skill, knowledge, and labor! How much is your time worth per hour? How many hours did it take you? THAT IS WHAT YOUR ENGINE IS ACTUALLY WORTH
I can tell then that this'll be one of those projects I'll need to postpone until after I get all my more pressing major projects completed. I know too that it'll be a project I'll want to do. It also means that when I build my big layout that I'll have to keep the curves really broad, 24" or larger. I know that 22" or 24" curves would look kind of sharp for something that long even if it can negotiate it. 30" curves would be preferred for any visible curves. I don't have a complete machine shop like you indicate, by I do enjoy doing fine detailed work. It'll also give me a good excuse to buy some more tools! Mark
Watash has provided a detailed response and I am somewhat reluctant to contradict some of what he said, but here goes. I have built Bowser kits without milling machines and they run beautifully. Just about everything else he says is true. The filing work is tedious. I found the mechanism to go together fairly easily. It is important to ensure the free movement of the valve gear/drivers in the frame prior to installing motor, and to shim motor mount as required to get proper gear mesh. I did assemble both Mantua and MDC kits before my first Bowser, and the experience did help. I obviously do not have anywhere near the knowledge Watash has in machining(I have none). I just want to make the job seem a little less intimidating than it sounds. Watash, no offense meant. As far as brass goes, I've never come across brass that will perform like the Bowser kits, when assembled well. However, some tweaking of brass and balancing weight over the drivers will make very good performers of them too. That reminds me, balance is crucial to pulling performance, much more so than just more weight. For 2-8-2, 4-8-2,etc, I just use a pencil between 2nd and 3rd drivers. If unit tips one way or other, add (or even remove) weight as appropriate. For 6 driver units, use a flat bar under the center drivers. Never done articulateds, hum. I would suggest starting with a smaller, inexpensive kit to get a feel for the procedure. Good luck. Gary
Here is my take. Minimum tools required. 6" new flat basterd file, file brush, good set of jeweler files, set of riffler files, a good quality dial calipers. 1-60 drill index, 61-80 drill index, good pin vice, small but good quality drill press, piece of flat glass (I use an old VW rear 1/4 window), NWSL gear puller, NWSL 1/4er. For the drive, use NWSL gear boxes, NWSL couplers and shafts. For a motor, use the longest that will fit with a flywheel. Length is where you get the torque. Mount the motor in a bed of silicon. A large selection of NWSL shims. Set everything as close to "0" as you can except the wheel gauge. Set that at MAX as it is still way short of the track you can buy. QUOTE: That reminds me, balance is crucial to pulling performance, much more so than just more weight. For 2-8-2, 4-8-2,etc, I just use a pencil between 2nd and 3rd drivers. If unit tips one way or other, add (or even remove) weight as appropriate. For 6 driver units, use a flat bar under the center drivers. Never done articulateds, hum. END OF QUOTE: Yes, balance is very important. This is the reason none of the ready to run articulateds will not pull. Each engine set has to be equal in itself and to each other. Can be done using the proper spring on top of the front engine. QUOTE: It also means that when I build my big layout that I'll have to keep the curves really broad, 24" or larger. I know that 22" or 24" curves would look kind of sharp for something that long even if it can negotiate it. 30" curves would be preferred for any visible curves. END OF QUOTE: Don't even think of anything less than 36" and 42" will work better. Some of the high dollar brass articulateds will not even work on that. With all of that, I will now get back to my MDC Shay, Sn3 conversion
Ok my 2 cents worth! I've built a few Bowser I-2's (2-10-0's) and they are swiss quallity and run smooth as glass... Problem is to get the smoothness of their running capabilities, TAKE YOUR TIME! DO NOT rush! It will be rewarding! I'm now building a Bowser Challenger. 4-6-6-4. Nice kit but very very tedious work! And as Watash has said and most have agreed... You need some good tools such as the riffler, and jewlar, and a basterd files. Every drill bit you have plus a few if you don't have a full set! You got the excuse to buy a set of good bits. Also keep a good ballanced 7 to 8 ounce hammer (ball peen). And alot of patients! I had built one Bowser I-2 2-10-0 for myself, and I also have the Bowser PRR Duplex T-1 4-4-4-4, and the Casey Jones 4-6-0. All built and in smooth running condition but it took me years to get them built and running good! As a few knows my work they know what I put into my loco's when their kits. I'm in the process of building 4 MDC 3 truck Shays and I believe I've built every Mantua kit made or that was made at one time! And the experience with the MDC's and Mantua kits pays off when you go to build a Bowser kit. When you begin the assmely of a Bowser. One word of advice is make sure your familar to each and every part listed in their instructions! It will help dramtically in its assembly. As all craftmen knows and will say more times then you may want to hear.. I can not tell or emphasize enough.. TAKE YOUR TIME! In the end with the result you will be proud to say hey "I BUILT THAT" thats what a kits all about! One other thing, when you get the drivers in the engine beds do one other thing that the instructions do not say. Take a brass wire brush and polish the driver wheel treads! Till they shine! They are a tedious little thing when trying to pull electric from the rail head. They need polished at a high RMP. Do not try to polish the wheel treads by hand. You will need a rotary tool thats high speed to do this. Such as a Dremel. And the brass wire brush for it. And as Watash has said, if you get a bind....... DO NOT drill out the pin hole. Work at the location of the bind. 9 times out of 10 its rubbing someplace else and not a tight rivet in the rods! I noticed to find a bind around the piston cylinders and crosshead. This is the place of origin. Work out the bind at its origin and not the side rod holes or the pins. One other precation. DO NOT punch the rivets tight. Just mushroom the rivets over enough to hold the rods. DO NOT OVER DO IT! This is almost impossible to correct once done. You would then have to replace the rivet or rivets that are tight. Reason for it its mushroomed to much and the only way to take the rivet back out is to grind off the mushroom which destroys the purpose of the rivet... It then has to be totally replaced with a new one. For those who know I have a Bowser Challenger in the assembly process I'm going to see if I can get a picture to post of the front set of completed drivers.... [ 03 January 2002: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
And as promissed.... The front set of engines to a Bowser Challenger... This is the completed set so far.... I know that my digital camera isn't the best guys so... Over look the picture quallity. I don't have the right lenses or a focus feature on it so.... Its a cheap camera and all... I hope to get a better one in time and retire the one I have now! Anyway, heres one of 2 sets of loco engines, (front set) from a Bowser Challenger
I agree completely that the only way to truly fix a problem is to find where the problem is. That can often be the most difficult thing. Fixing stuck linkage by making it slop around is not the answer, eventually it'll have even worse problems. It's good to hear that it's possible to build a good locomotive without a complete machine shop. While I was never planning on having to buy a milling machine, I will need to get a good drill press and a very good set of files. It seems that in this hobby it is hard to have too many tools, especially the small ones. They do come in handy when your eye glasses break! I need to become more familiar with NWSL and the repowering of locomotives to really understand what options are available out there. Maybe I'll have to open a train store and repair shop when I retire in 20 years in order to be able to do all these things?? I actually know a guy that did it in Salt Lake City. He runs the Train Shop 2 blocks from Trolley Square. Mark
I have worked on four Bowser kits. I started out with the rather simple H-9. Which really is a poor imitation of the Pennsy H-9. I found that when you add in the time, cost of super detail parts, and painting; it was cheaper to buy a lower end brass model. Also, the detail on these engines is not up to the level of the new plastic engines or even the brass engines of the 1960's. So my advice would be to save for a lower end brass of under $400, or buy the new plastic engines. That being said, I really like Bowser's freight cars and cabin cars. (Cabin cars are Pennsy cabooses) Eric
I did not intend for my comments about a machine shop, to be intimadating. I appologize for that. I have experienced several kits that had factory flaws that were out of date, or that were started by someone else, then sent to me to "fix". I have a #1 Hamilton Jeweler's milling machine, which has been necessary to repair several brass frames, and in making equalizing linkages, and new rod sets. Yes, Bowser kits are good kits, and can be made into excellent running engines, if you know how. My comments were to warn a first time modeler to think twice about tackeling a Big Boy for your first attempt at assembling a kit. My dad and I made articulated engines from factory blue prints, so ours do NOT have the swiveling rear driver sets! That will tell you it is one of ours, if you ever see one built just like the real ones were, along with our initials stamped in 1/16" letters on the bottom at the rear of the brass frame. Ours would negotiate a 30" curve, but the boiler over-hang was more than a scale curve would have been. They looked best on a minimum 52" radius curve which is HO scale for a 20 degree curve, or a 2 degree turnout. We both made several solid lead boilers, that were hollowed out just enough to clear the motors and drive shafts. Then we went to lost wax brass boilers that were filled with lead, and hollowed out the same way. Both seemed to pull well, hold the rails well, and could still spin the drivers with the two DC-71 or DC-90 motors, none of which ever burned up that I was aware of. A comparable "can" motor of today would probably work as well. Now days it would be far and away simpler to just kit-bash any engine you want from parts available ready-made.
Don't worry, I don't intimidate easily. I guess that's why I was, and still am thinking about building a Big Boy some day. While the plastic steamers have some great detail, I'm a bit disappointed at their overall weight and pulling power. They look nice, and run O.K., but could do with some improvements in running ability. As a plus to me, I like the idea of digging into it and putting it together over time. Making it better while I'm doing it is a plus. While the ads all crow over pulling +50 cars, we all know that the numbers are a lot lower with real tracks and grades. It all works down to weight and raw horsepower. Weight for the traction, and horsepower to make it happen. I understand that weight alone won't do it if the wheels don't track and maintain contact with the rails. A real suspension system is needed for that. Am I biting off more than I can chew? Maybe. As long as I take small bites at a time though I can eat an entire elephant, as long as the meat is kept refrigerated until I can get to it.. Mark
Bowser loco kits taught me the meaning of patience and not settling for anything leass than correct. All the ones I have made run great, although my first, a PRR M1, always had gear lash no matter how I tried to adjust the motor. After a few years I bought a Helix Humper kit and installed it. Now it runs as smooth as an Athearn Mike and still has plenty of power. No problems with overheating either. I really like the weight of Bowser engines,they make my bridges creak just like the real thing. One other thing, the staff at Bowser has always been very helpful, great folks.
One thing I have come to realize is that if you plan on eventually running Bowswer or similar heavy locomotive, you need to make sure that the layout can handle it. I'm not just talking about the turning radius, but being able to structurally handle the weight. Can your bridges handle a 3 or 4 pound locomotive? I figure I'll have to plan on about 1 1/2 pounds per foot strength-wise. This should only be a concern on bridges, but if you plan on building your own bridges, you may want to run them past a structural engineer? Mark
I wouldn't worry awhole lot on structural support to much. I got a bunch of Bowser loco's and a bridge made from popsicle sticks, wood shaped from "Northeastern Scale Models" and cardboard gussets, all glued together with hot glue.... The bridge measures 23.5 inches long and supports a double mainline! And i've sat 2 Bowser loco's on each track, inside the bridge! And I've never had any trouble with it... I would suggest if your a beginner in scratch building bridges, to test it after its built for strength and weak points by other means then a loco hitting the floor. But if your gluing skills is mediocre I'd say your safe for the strength to carry a heavy loco.... I mean the bridge I built is long and wide and also not made of anything like Plastruct or anything. And I never used any special glue... Basic craft shop hot glue. The cardboard gussets are actually only for looks. The pieces of wood are glued together and then the cardboard gussets are glued on to represent the steel gusset plastes riveted or bolted to the frame. So its pretty straight forward.... [ 11 January 2002: Message edited by: 7600EM_1 ]
