Brass NG model quality standards?

I'm not a "brass person", rather one who likes fine detailing, and most of all fine craftsmanship even if some details are missing. And for this, I don't care how a model is made, be that brass, die cast, plastic, or a combination thereof. In addition, brass seems to sell at ridiculously high prices when auctioned. Every now and then, however, such a brass model does indeed tickle my fancy. Looking at the pictures, it is sometimes very obvious to see differences in quality of such models. In many other instances, however, the pictures are not good enough to determine how well a model is built. Thus my question: Are there manufacturers that are reliably delivering particularly good quality, such as careful soldering, fine attachments etc? And are there others who usually try to "cut corners" in the way their models are done? As an example, from my very limited experience, and only judging from pictures, it would seem to me that PSC is better than PFM. But there are Westside, Sunset, Balboa, Pacific Traction, ADDM and more. I would welcome some kind of ranking as well as more detailed comments.

There might also be differences between On3 and HOn3? Thus, it would seem to me that Westside is better in On3 than HOn3?

 

There are definitely pecking orders. Some basics I've gathered:

Really early stuff was made in the USA...but not particularly great. The really early Japanese stuff was lower quality...but cheap. The Japanese, due to their depressed economic level, were able to improve their quality and began producing decent products. Towards the end, the quality was excellent, but it became pricey. The process then repeated in South Korea...which is where PSC still has their brass produced.

Max Gray is well known as one of the early importers. Some, if not all, were partial kits, and famous for being difficult to assemble. Balboa, importing in the 1960s and early 1970s, also important a number of semi-kits. In 1972, they imported the only batch of Cooke moguls ever offered in On3...but made a number of mistakes...all due to faulty drawings in a 1960s Model Railroader. It is close enough for me to use it...but it does bother me that it isn't quite right. They typically sell for $240-$280.

As a rule of thumb, the Japanese imports were in large quantities while the Korean imports are of smaller quantities. Therefore, many PFM, Balboa, and such models are out there for the price of a modern die-cast locomotive...while the Korean models are the really expensive ones. Most modelers are in the market for the Japanese stuff as they intend to run them...and need multiples of a particular engine (they need quantity over quality). I don't care that my locomotives don't have a fully functional suspension. I have 3 NKP hudsons (Japan, 1977), and all three cost me less than a single new C&O hudson from PSC. I'd rather have 3 passenger trains than 1...but the PSC ones are nicer.

IIRC, Sunset's EBT 2-8-2 is supposed to be much better than Westside's...but I don't have personal experience with it.

I have a couple Custom Brass pieces...both leave tons to desire. One is as well detailed as a B-man On30 piece, the other is terribly incorrect...and only part of it is due to bad drawings. Both were made in Japan.

I think the year of the model is the most important thing...a 1960 model won't be as nice as a 1980 model, typically.

IIRC, there is one importer with a better reputation than PSC...but I can't recall who.

I'd recommend searching forums, yahoo groups, and such for insight into the quality (and don't forget that they may have be modified!) of specific models.

Michael

 

I have no personal ownership experience with brass imports per se as my entire motive pool consists of MMI die cast models. I don't model Sn3 but PBL appears to make quality units from what I've seen on another layout. However, I have noticed that the Balboa steam offerings I've seen on ebay tend to have less details than PFM and others. In particular they tend to lack any cab details. From the ads I've seen recently the Berlyn locomotives look really nice, but for the price I can get 4 MMI's. As such, unless I win the lottery I'm going to stick with MMI for as long as they continue to manufacture them.

As a new member I've noticed that there seem to be only four of us making posts. Are we all that there are in Narrow Gauges?

 

I have looked at brass longingly through a glass case, like a kid staring into the toy store window...but that is the extent of my actual experience. My reading has suggested that just because its brass does not mean it performs better...in fact in some cases brass performs worse (like a lot of the HOn3 stuff). Kemtron made a lot of On3, but like most brass manufacturers they seem to have gone by the wayside.

In answer to your question, there are several folks in narrow gauge here, many drop by only occassionally others (like your's truely) always has something to say

 

Thanks for all these comments. I was not so much thinking about engines when I opened this thread, more about cars. One particular problem with brass engines offered on eBay is that these are mostly rather old. And this usually means motors sticking into the cab, mostly no functioning lights, and sometimes even no lenses. It actually eludes me how one can be turned on by this kind of "unfinished" or crude stuff. But brass seems to have a special appeal to some. Sure, for static displays it's no major problem when the light is not functioning and the motor is noisy. I have a bunch of such models too. But in those cases, I mainly wanted them for their looks.

The general impression that brass performs less well than the cheaper models is certainly true for my single European brass model. The main reason I bought that one was because at the time it was the only way to get a model of a particular prototype. It is also the main reason I now even consider brass models offered on eBay.

 

Brass cars are a whole different story IMO. Some of the best models I have ever seen are brass...detail is fantastic, but then again so is price. If I got hold of one I would be afraid to paint it just because of its value unpainted...

 

Yes, that is a real problem. But there are very few unpainted brass models that I would like to have on display in my collection. There is a On3 ADDM double dome tank car on eBay right now that I would like the way it is (even without trucks and couplers in this case). And I have seen the occasional engine . But mostly I prefer them painted. Yet, if I would get an unpainted one, I'd be afraid to botch it up.

 

I would caution that the worst brass models I've ever seen were cars...not engines. They are also incredibly overweight.

Brass is not unlike any other medium...diecast, plastic, resin. The quality depends on the builder's abilities at that point in time and the quality of information they have. What brass does allow is for prototypes not feasible for production in other mediums to be produced. The smaller production runs being financially viable, it is easier and prudent to cater to the low volume, superduper detailed market of collectors. Brass importers are smart enough to know that the market for moderately detailed HO USRA 2-8-2s became purely the domain of plastic and diecast ten years ago...only plastic or diecast phobia justifies brass.

There is simply no way that I'll purchase brass when other options exist. I'd prefer styrene to other materials...it is far easier to bash. Brass is my least favorite material second only to steel (and I'm glad that cardstock isn't used!). But, some models are only available in brass...so I'll sometimes have to bite the bullet...else I'll never get that HO DM&IR 2-8-8-4, more NKP 4-6-4s, or (for now) that On3 Mason Bogie.

 

Hmmmm....sure like the looks of that On3 caboose on EBay I am bidding on, but I agree in general

 

The custom brass one, eh? I would suggest not offering very much for it. Its level of detail is the lowest I've ever seen on an On3 model (my dad picked one up for $15 at an auction a few years back).

For some reason, every commercially produced C&S caboose...with the exception of some in Nn3 and Grandt's HOn3 car...is a model of the unique #1006!?!? Obviously, it is because it survives and those are the plans which were published first. Plastic versions are easy enough to convert to the #1005 or #1008 by replacing the square corners with rounded corners. Longer and shorter cars require scraping much of the main assemblies. Grandt's On3 caboose is also the #1006...which is a why I would suggest not offering very much for the Custom Brass version. GL's>>CB's. IMO, the only advantage to the CB car is that it is pre-assembled.

The custom brass model rolls fine. It doesn't have any problems with derailing. It isn't too heavy either...my top complaint with brass rolling stock...and probably a greater factor than price in me not purchasing any more.

I must give kudos to the one on ebay...the paint has been stripped...as most of those are improperly painted/lettered. It also appears to have Grandt Line's old metal rimmed wheels...which is good and bad. Good in that they look phenomonal and have some of the properties of metal wheels...but bad in that they were discontinued due to QC issues. I have 5 cars in service with them (soon to be 6)...they are my second favorite wheels after NWSL (which is by far my favorite).

Michael

 

I agree with you about the 1006...I now have two versions of that caboose. The brass is really just a curiosity piece for me, and no I am not bidding high on it. In fact if I get outbid, no tears here

 

I don't run in the narrow guage circle, but I have 5 brass N scale engines and they are great. 3 were good from the factory, two needed some work to get them to run great. One thing I've found is that brass locomotives are much easier to work on, repair and remotor than their plastic counterparts. I've remotored two with coreless motors and they perform far better than any plastic loco that I've owned. As far as detail go, the newer models are definatly better than the older ones.

 

Good! I didn't want to see you be disappointed! I recently bid on a pair of Grandt D&RGW gons...$10...and lost both pretty quickly ;-) I enjoy bidding early for something which I know will go for well above my price range...it's fun to be the high bidder on a $1000 item when it is at $0.99!

Nice pun!

All I can say is OOOh! I know that some people think that coreless motors are snobbish, but after having one locomotive with a coreless...I had little choice but to order a coreless for the 2-8-0 I'm building...and I'd love to have them in all my engines. They are just so nice, smooth, and powerful. Unfortunately for me, because of the gearhead I purchased, I think I'm going to have to spend $65 or so on a geartower to use the motor in my 2-8-0.

I know nothing of your layout (or modules), but I think you'd benefit from some Nn3! Based on your name, I'd guess that you might enjoy RLW's 50t SPng diesel or the Gold Rush SPng 4-6-0. You don't know the power of the Dark Side of...um...the Narrow Side of steam! tongue:

 

I think N and Z brass are really the wave of the future in those scales, especially Z. I have been doing a lot of research on Nn3 and Z and am amnazed by the number of brass engines in Z scale. I would love to see some pics of your engines!