Chicago Metra Grade Crossing Accident

GP30 Nov 24, 2005

  1. Eagle2

    Eagle2 Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Martyn, #2 is downright scary and altogether possible. Good reason to make changes with or without accepting responsibility.
     
  2. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    I'm sure that the costs of this will be forced down the railroad's throat. Even though responsibility for any accident, would likely fall on any motorist(s) or pedestrian(s) involved.

    Some day, I hope soon, railroads will get tired of this stuff. Refuse to grant any further easements. And cancel ALL of those existing. It's the only way to awaken an illiterate public.

    Boxcab E50
     
  3. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    Well, I would think that it wouldn't be charged to CP (The railroad that I believe owns those tracks via Soo Via Milwaukee.)

    I remember a few years ago there was a big brewhaha at a crossing a bit further northwest On II don't remember whose tracks when a Schoolbus was hit. The determination was that because of the nature of the intersections along the route and the timing that a major change to the way the lights are timed had to be made. I think that was mostly at the cost of the city and state. Maybe the same will happen here finally.
     
  4. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Unfortunately, in that train- school bus accident, both METRA, and UP still ended up paying out millions in settlements. So in this case, I'll not be surprised to see the same happen.

    [​IMG]

    Boxcab E50
     
  5. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    True, but in that case it wasn't the bus driver's fault so they probably paid just to make their lives easier.

    In this case, It is more then likely the motorist's fault. Granted tort law favors morons, but still, I don't think it's a forgone conclusion.
     
  6. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    For that accident, I don't see where the RR's were at any fault. Road construction that had caused a foreshortened space, from track to cross street, wasn't any responsibility of the RR. Rather, totally of those other parties who created the hazardous condition. That's where I have a problem with the outcome.

    Paying may have been the easier route. But it also probably establishes a precedent, which then invites future costly litigations.

    :(

    Boxcab E50
     
  7. doofus

    doofus TrainBoard Supporter

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    EXACTLY!!!! Groups such as "Operation Livesaver" would rather use their time and resources educating the general public and bringing attention to situations such as this to ALL entities involved.

    Name calling doesn't stop these things from happening. Being proactive and bringing hazzardous situations to the forefront of public discussion will!!!! [​IMG]

    If you don't think it is worth saving the life of someone who ignores the warnings, fine. But remember, there is a train crew, and in this case, passengers whom I'm sure, don't want to be injured or killed in an accident!
     
  8. Martyn Read

    Martyn Read TrainBoard Supporter

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    Yeah, i'm with you on that. As far as I can tell Metra only had direct responsibility for their train, yet they got a big chunk of the bill - that seems crazy to me (assuming the train was working correctly and being operated correctly - which as far as I can tell it was).
     
  9. doofus

    doofus TrainBoard Supporter

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    It probably goes way back to when the RR granted the right to cross the tracks. Legal wrangling, be it right or wrong, can get technical. The RR probably put their OK on the initial plan and didn't question any placements. But that is just speculation on my point.

    I don't think anyone plans an unsafe crossing, but it would be next to impossible to come up with all the possibilities for an accident to occur. You just can't see far enough into the future.

    [ November 30, 2005, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: doofus ]
     
  10. Martyn Read

    Martyn Read TrainBoard Supporter

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    Sorry, what I meant (with reference to the Fox River accident) was that these aren't Metra's tracks, I believe they are UP's. Therefore as most of the problem was with the setup of the equipment (both road & rail) and not to do with how Metra operated their train, and none of the equipment or the setup of it would have been Metra's responsibility, why did they get the lions share of the bill?

    The only involvement by Metra seems to be that it happened to be their train that turned up.
     
  11. Flash Blackman

    Flash Blackman TrainBoard Member

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    I am cynical about all this. Metra had to pay because they have money. UP will have to pay for the same reason as will the government of Fox River unless there is some government immunity there. Private companies don't have that luxury. In fact, if the government of Exeter, UK can be linked to this, they will pay, too! :mad: Responsibility for the accident fades as you find where the money is. [​IMG]
     
  12. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Martyn-

    Those were indeed UP (ex-C&NW) tracks. Metra has trackage rights.

    Metra and UP did not get the lions share of the bill. Local government did.

    There was no failure of design, or operation, for railroad related equipment. All tested and operated as originally intended.

    It was strictly local government's mistakes. It was that government's responsibility to ensure any arrangements for alterations of RR equipment, as made necessary by changes government made to those adjacent roads. Sadly, they did not do so.

    :(

    Boxcab E50
     
  13. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    In either case, the point is that in the Fox river incident (was it Mount Prospect? I can't remember I've been through the intersection a dozen times)

    It was an issue of design failure.
    In this incidnet, it's the fault of some idiots in their cars not stopping before the tracks in Rushhour traffic.
     
  14. Martyn Read

    Martyn Read TrainBoard Supporter

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    Quoting from the Wikepedia article - the largest amount paid was by the school district as operator of the bus (i'm following some logic that far ;) ), then:

    So I would say the railroads paid about ten times the amount IDOT (responsible for the highway signals?) paid. That's assuming the quote means they paid $7m together not each?

    YoHo, I would say that this crossing has issues of 'design failure', not in the way it's protected but in the physical way the road and rail alignments meet.

    I'm sure at any crossing from time to time some eedjit driver just drives irresponsibly and gets stuck there, but from the quotes it seems to happen all the time at this crossing rather than every so often.

    So either this crossing catches folk out that wouldn't normally (thinkingly) do that at a conventional crossing, or all the crossing dodging eedjits in Chicago live just there! :D
     
  15. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    So I would say the railroads paid about ten times the amount IDOT (responsible for the highway signals?) paid. That's assuming the quote means they paid $7m together not each? </font>[/QUOTE]The railroads did pay out more than the state. However, that was not due to any lack of culpability. It was because a state law limits their financial liability in lawsuits. Which saved their rear ends from a huge bill.

    Also, be careful when using Wikipedia. Verify anything you find there, especially RR history, with other resources. As this info can be contributed from amateur sources, I've found many an error published.

    :(

    Boxcab E50
     
  16. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    It hapopens all the time at railroad crossings all across Chicagoland, not just at Grand Ave. I'll give you that it's not the most elegant crossing, but I've seen worse.

    In the School bus incident, because of the timeing of the signals, the Bus driver was not given sufficent warning of the train to avoid getting hit.

    In this case, we have a bunch of TYPICAL CHICAGO JERK MOTORISTS (I am one at heart, so I can say that) being really stupid.
    The signalling was correct, the idiots in their cars just behaved like morons. You are not ever supposed to stop on the tracks. You are told to wait until there's a clear spot beyond the tracks to advance. This is common sense and people that don't want to die, like me, do this.
    The typical moron that commutes along those roads does not act like this.


    I see it happen in San Diego too. People play games with their lives while driving all the time.
     
  17. Martyn Read

    Martyn Read TrainBoard Supporter

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    I think you're in danger of using double standards here, in that accident the bus driver pulled across the crossing and sat there with the tail of her vehicle on the tracks waiting for the lights to clear. She remained sat there waiting for the red light after the railroad gates activated. I don't see that any different to what the folks we are talking about did, except that this is a proffessional driver getting it wrong in this case.

    If the lights had cleared earlier she may have moved, but in essence similar circumstances to what we are discussing. The bus driver obviously did not recognise the hazard or there was no reason why she could not have moved the vehicle forward enough to clear the track without physically entering the road junction.

    (Background info from here:)
    http://www.stnonline.com/stn/government/ntsb/accidents/foxriver.htm
     
  18. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    I disagree from that same link

    The bus had pulled beyond the tracks. The space between the intersection the grade crossing was not sufficently large to hold a School bus. Aparently, the driver did not realize that the bus didn't fit before pulling through. Once the bus went through, it was stuck there.

    In this current accident, we're talking about rush hour where there was no open space ahead of the tracks and/or insufficent attention was paid to the traffic signals indicating that they should be cautious about how much space there was.
    When you're in rush hour traffic, you don't pull through until there is a space for you to pull into. Quite clearly this is not what the drivers did. They drove up with the intention of stopping on the tracks gambling that they'd get through before a train came rather then waiting to garuntee room. It's agressive driving and it happens all the time.

    If this had been some cars nipped in the rear because the space wasn't large enough, I might buy that I was using double standards, but that's not the case, cars were fully parked on the tracks.


    Also there's this:
    I think you have to have a visual of both of these intersections to see the differences
     
  19. YoHo

    YoHo TrainBoard Supporter

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    Here's a link to the current accident site
    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Elmwood+park+il&ll=41.925877,-87.819407&spn=0.005225,0.012720&hl=en


    here's the Fox River Grove link

    http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fox+River+Grove+il&ll=42.197201,-88.217103&spn=0.005203,0.012720&hl=en


    In the current accident, I think it's the light at Sunset Drive/76th which caused the backup.

    When you switch to the sat image you'll see that there is significantly more space here between the intersection and the tracks then there is out in FRG.

    The traffic lights in FRG are supposed to go green when the gates are activated to clear all traffic from the potentially dangerous area.
     
  20. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    One thought here. I have actually been in a vehicle, where the crossing arm came down upon it. (No. I was not it's driver. It was my boss.) Plus, have been employed so as to be near RR tracks a significant amount. So have seen, and heard the gates strike many times. Too many times.

    When a crossing arm comes down upon a vehicle, it makes a very loud noise. That should have been very audible, and a warning to the bus driver that she was in danger's path.

    Boxcab E50
     

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