Howdy Fella's ! Can I bother ya'll with another DCC question ??? In my preparation for my new DCC layout, for financial reasons I have initially purchased locomotives that are "DCC READY". When shopping on line I notice that the same DC locomotive in DCC are sometimes $70.00 to $80.00 more. Would it be cheaper for me to by my own decoders in bulk and install them and will this be a money saver ? What are the smallest decoders and what is the simplest to install DCC system that would go along with the smallest decoders ? Also, are the Bachmann Spectrum 8-40's from about 10 years ago DCC ready ? I just want to make the best moves money wise. If it gets too much money, maybe DC is going to be cheaper. I look forward to your replies, thanks guys ! fatalxsunrider43
Well, the price difference between DCC-ready and DCC-installed usually is more like $30 than $70-80. I don't know where you are seeing this kind of difference, but no way should you pay that. Continue to buy DCC ready, and use aftermarket decoders by Digitrax, Lenz or TCS. This route is not only generally cheaper, it is better. The DCC decoders used by Atlas are old "first-generation" Lenz designs; while they work, they don't have nearly the sophistication in motor control, lighting and so forth that today's modern designs do. John C.
I don't know where you are looking, but I know that some of the DCC installation shops have to charge more for, say, a decoder in an N scale Atlas Shay than a simple drop-in in, say, a Kato PA, and the reason for that is that the installation is a lot more involved, including modification of the locomotive, isolation of the motor, and so on. The truly DCC-ready locomotives go much more quickly. Non-sound decoders seem to be running around $18-35 mostly. The lower cost ones tend to have fewer features. The smallest decoders that I know of are the Lenz Gold mini decoders. Other decoders that are quite small include the TCS Z scale decoders (many if not all of which have enough amperage to run an N scale locomotive) and the Digitrax DZ series. All of the major DCC systems should work with these decoders. The most popular DCC sets seem to be made by Lenz, NCE, and Digitrax. I have a Digitrax Zephyr and it works very well. I have heard good things from Lenz and NCE users as well. If there are lots of users of a particular system in your area I would tend toward choosing that system as the local tech support from friends/clubmates/the local guys at the LHS is invaluable. Adam
Don;t bother with the older version of the spectrum dash-8 if you ever want DCC. heck, don't buy the Bachmann!! Spend an extra $20 on an Atlas, you won't be sorry. TRUST.
I think of course it will be cheaper to do your own conversions. If you have moderate soldering skills, go with the hard wired decoders, because they are cheaper. Some don't like Digitrax, but I do. They are simple, fault free replacement for up to a year, and they are cheap. I buy DZ125 decoders for around $20 give or take a buck. Lenz is supposed to have the smallest with their Silver Mini, but I have both the Silver Mini and the DZ125, The Silver Mini is slightly smaller in one direction but by not much at all. But the DZ125 is slightly smaller in the other direction, so they are for the most part, pretty much the same in size. The Silver Mini has some cool fuctions, but at about twice the cost of the DZ125. So, for my simple needs, I can buy 2 of the DZ for the price of one Mini Silver. Hope that helps some..
As I understand it, the big advantage of the Silver Mini over the DZ is better motor control, which is useful with pickier locos like most N scale steam. I tend to put DZ125s or the rough TCS equivalent in most things that I hard-wire.
Thanks guys, great information very quick, fantastic. Also on the Bachmann Spectrum 8-40's of old, I have about 8 of these in regular and wide cabs in different Roads. For DCC modification, I wonder if they are easily adpated, or should I sell them ? They look nice in Santa Fe and UP, but if they are only going to be difficult to mod with decoders, then they should go to a DC runner. fatalxsunrider43
I was holding off on that question because I don't have any direct experience with these models. It turns out that the answer is likely "it depends." If you take a look at this page on them from Spookshow's locomotive encyclopedia you will see that the conversion depends largely on which version of the Spectrum model they are. Maybe someone here has some more direct experience with these? Adam
I think you might be right about the Silver Mini. It is a cool decoder, but for the advantages it has, I would rather have two for one with the DZ, but that's me (If I didnt have so many conversions to do I might have a different attitude). If I was more sophisticated when it comes to functions and control like that, the Silver Mini would be a better choice. But, what I did notice about the loco I have the Silver Mini in, is the simulated braking thing. When I Shut down, it gradually rolls to a stop just as real train would with the weight. Kinda cool really. But you can simulate the same illusion manually if you step up the steps on the DZ. But, I think it is cool because you can adjust that illusion with the Silver Mini. Im sure it can do allot more too, but that is what I noticed out of the box with it.
All I know about the Silver Mini is what others report. Those with large N scale steam fleets seem to like them for the enhanced motor control. I have been using mostly DZ125s lately. I can get two for about 40 bucks and, let's face it, I am not going to extra functions in each loco.
By the way.. On another note. I have recently decided that I will go ALL hard wire on all the locos I convert from now on. I have 4 that had drop in decoders in them. The drop in decoders are supposed to be trouble free, but I just don't see it. They cost anywhere between 50%-100% more than a hard wire, AND, since I have done about 15-20 conversions, out of which 4 are drop ins. I have had problems with 3 of the 4 drop ins I have had. That is a 75% problem rate with them. The hard wires take longer to install, but are much more reliable IMHO. I have done 10-15 hard wires, and have only had two issues with them, one being my own stupid fault (dumb mistake), and another DOA. That is a 10%-12% problem rate. So, it's hard wired decoders for me, even if a drop in is available.
The problems that I usually experience with drop-ins are that the contact pads don't always make contact like they are supposed to do. Hardwired decoders give me fewer fits, too.
Yeah, count me in the "all hardwire" camp; I just put a half dozen Lenz silver mini's in some Atlas GP9's and RS11's. SD9's are on the horizon. It really doesn't take much more time to hardwire the Lenz than put in, then fix, the "drop in" decoder boards. John C.
Thats what I have also noticed that those contact points are their weakness. Not a solid connection, and a point of corrosion, or even debri can cause issues with that connection. Hard wire, is hard wired, and assuming you have a good solder joint, your golden..
I've been using the Lenz silver mini decoders since they first came out. This decoder gives you outstanding motor control with many features other decoders are lacking.
I will weigh in with my observations about decoders and DCC for a minute or two.... First, I will agree with what has been said about the Lenz Silver Mini decoders. They are absolutely the best choice for steam and small switchers etc. They just handle the low speed and BEMF better than anyone else. I have them in several early Kato F units and just love them. I opted for board replacement decoders in all locomotives that will uses them, save switchers as noted above. When it comes to the reliability of the board replacement decoders, it is pretty straight forward on what to do. You need to do two things. First is cleanup the board, in many cases there is excess material that keep the decoder for seating properly. I have found this most often on Digitrax boards, but I have also seen it on TCS boards as well. Second, never trust a mechanical connection over an electrical connection. In short, solder the motor leads to the decoder boards contacts. This is shown on the TCS website for the Kato locomotives TCS K0D8-B Decoder Installation for N-Scale Kato EMD F3A and on the Litchfield Station site for the Atlas decoder installations DCC Install - Atlas GP-38 On a similar tact, Kato SD40 units and the like can also be made bulletproof soldering the motor leads to the decoders. It is a little touchier soldering, but with pre-tinning the motor leads it is not too bad. When it comes to the cost, this should not be a consideration. If you like the DCC capabilities, then just go DCC. There is no rule that says you have to convert all of the locomotives at once. It is actually better that you do only a couple conversions and test several decoders to see what you like. This way, you are not out a lot of money if you made a mistake on your selection. You can see what you like and determine what you need. With that in place, you can start shopping for the decoders that fit your requirements. Now that that is taken care of, just become a member of the 2 or 3 decoders a month club. This way you get to ease into your DCC and get to know it better. Perhaps, you get to a point where your first selection, is not what you want anymore, well from that point on, you can change to a better decoder solution. Leave the installs alone on the existing fleet. They work just fine and can be blended in with the newer decoder locomotives. A simple example..... You start out using the Digitrax DZ125. It is a good and solid decoder. But now you want to have the ability to add a beacon or a strobe light to the locomotive. The DZ143 gives you two more light function and the DN163 gives you six. Both of these are upgrades to the DZ125 and do not cost that much more. But they are there if you need them. In my case, the older 2 function decoders are used as the middle locomotives in consists. The ones with the beacons and working ditchlights are on the point and trailing locomotives. All of the "in between" locomotives have the lights turned off, and here, it makes no sense to change these decoders until they fail. I can still have good operations with the older decoders and the newer decoders. In the end, the costs are there, but they must be weighed with the quality of the experience running your trains. If you do not need DCC, a lot of fun and many folks do amazing things with their DC layouts, just like lots of people do amazing things with the DCC layouts. If you are just starting out, I would really recommend you do a lot of research into world of DCC knowing that some of the features will cost more money. There are also ways of saving money but not fully implementing DCC. In this case, not using stationary decoders for turnouts and installing or using hand thrown turnouts can save a lot of money. So it boils down to how you will run your trains and the rest will take care of itself.
I am just getting into DCC and using TCS CN-GP's and TCS Z2's. I am liking what they do and the ease of installation. :thumbs_up::thumbs_up::thumbs_up: JustMyOpinion .
For those of you using a hard wired decoder on locos that have drop in decoders available, where do you pick up power? I don't think you can solder to the material they use to make the body frames. Tap and (tiny) screw? Most of these have very little space under the shell unless you hack away some area. I use drop ins where ever I can. A bit costlier but it's simplier for me and (knock on wood) I have never had a motor contact issue.
I have a sheet of .008 phosphor bronze; I cut a strip about 2mm wide off that, then cut that strip into 3/8" pieces. Fold a 3/8" piece over and shove it into the frame "lip" that is meant to provide contact to the PC board. Because the phosphor bronze is a bit "springy", it provides excellent contact with the frame, and easy soldering for the pickup wires. John C.
I agree 100% with DCESharkman and would like to add one other important point; If you MU or run more than one locomotive together - it is really important to try and determine which decoder manufacturer you realy like and buy those decoders as it makes it a heck of a lot easier to speed match and tweak the functions. Each of the decoder manufacturers uses their own chips that have different (not bad) running characteristics and it can be a bear to match up 2 or more locos with different decoders. Also, you might decide, now, that you will never need more than a 2 function decoder but if you decide down the road that you want to add additional functions; its not much of a cost increase to purchase those decoders as you are starting this phase of the hobby. Take it slow and have fun
