David K Smith G&D blog

JoeS Jul 13, 2011

  1. Garth-H

    Garth-H TrainBoard Supporter

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    To bad they can not learn to asks for someone like David to note the copy write or trademark and give it credit. In the long run this is a positive thing for model railroading in Z. Instead of gaining kudo points they have alienated a segment of the community once again and put negative spin on their brand. Not that I needed another reason not that I needed another reason not to join.
     
  2. EMD F7A

    EMD F7A TrainBoard Member

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    Meanwhile, it remains perfectly legal to refer to a layout as the "Gory & Defeated". Which seems much more appropriate after all of this, in my addled mind. Heck, maybe I just came up with the name of my own "artistic" Z gauge layout..... I'd better not make any abutments though.....

    :p
     
  3. Don A

    Don A TrainBoard Supporter

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    Actually I found two other listings of prior dates, but all 3 were NMRA filed. The other 2 MAY be inactive, but it would appear that NMRA has been attempting to register this name over some time period, with this one being the latest - and apparently successful.

    ...don
     
  4. BestSnowman

    BestSnowman TrainBoard Member

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    I don't know why the NMRA thinks they need to trademark these things but it sure doesn't make me any more eager to join the NMRA. Kind of sad.
     
  5. SteamDonkey74

    SteamDonkey74 TrainBoard Supporter

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    You can't tell me that you didn't see a "cease and desist" type letter in your future when you took the Gorre and Daphetid name. If it bugs you that much, go ahead and fight it. You might even win.

    Well, I have some couplers to fix and a decoder to install, so...
     
  6. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

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    I would have not guessed that I would get one...I have seen the name associated with model railroads featured in MR in the past(I.E. Gorre & Daphetid in a French mirror, Feb 1990). Also, this is a fake railroad. NO COMPANY EVER OWNED THE NAME. The man that cam up with it died in 1973, 38 years ago.
     
  7. BillMock

    BillMock TrainBoard Member

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    OK, not being legaly trained, here's what Trademark Infringement is:
    "Infringement may occur when one party, the "infringer", uses a trademark which is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark owned by another party, in relation to products or services which are identical or similar to the products or services which the registration covers. An owner of a trademark may commence legal proceedings against a party which infringes its registration."
    So the D&G logo may be the only thing that is "Trademarked".
    Recreating the layout in any scale should be your right and naming it D&G should be your right too. Otherwise I couldn't paint the Mona Lisa without somebody suing me.
    Now, trying to profit from selling copies of the original layout maybe a violation of some kind of copyright.
    Bill Mock
     
  8. bremner

    bremner Staff Member

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    well, there might be an issue here...

    http://www.terrainfortrains.com/Hisiera.htm
     
  9. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    I honestly didn't know the name was trademarked. So, if you refuse to accept that I didn't foresee this outcome, then you must assume I'm a liar.

    Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, it's all a tempest in a teapot; I have no desire or intention to fight it, especially since it's all about a handful of limited-run items that will not be on the market long enough to matter.
     
  10. BillMock

    BillMock TrainBoard Member

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    If the NMRA attempted to stop the sales of items which they in fact don't have "tradmark rights", they could be liable for damaging somebody's business and be found financially liable for these damages.
    Bill Mock
     
  11. TechRepJapan

    TechRepJapan Permanently dispatched

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    In post #18 of this thread, Mr. Smith offered his apologies, as he promised to do. If you had bothered to read any of his blog on the building of the Z-scale version G&D, you would fully know that the recreation in Z was a tribute to John Allen and his layouts. Mr. Smith has taken great lengths to give credit where credit is do throughout his blog. His G&D blog, along with all his other blogs, are a great source of valuable information.

    As for the NMRA... they have made it no secret that they are not interested in Z-scale. Example... the NTS that just ended, where the #1, #2, and #3 awarded SHOW layouts were not presented with any type of plaque.

    It's a H O B B Y !
     
  12. Alaska Railroader

    Alaska Railroader TrainBoard Supporter

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    I'd like to clarify some information concerning this event. I was very professional and apologetic to this lawyer as he described to me the reasoning behind his verbal cease and desist order which, by the way, will unfortunately be sent to David in writing. He explained to me that he was also protecting the rights to the family who currently owns the remains of the G&D. I believe their name is Goetz? His initial demand was to remove all of this product from our booth. Some of my questions to him were to get deeper to the root of the reason as to why he was there. On display in our booth was a signed and painted viaduct from David K Smith priced higher than the packaged items on the table but the price was not displayed. The average price of the small packages was labeled $7.00, these are the items i was told to remove but he finally agreed to let me just blacken the G&D name from them. I was NOT upset outwardly as I had been in retail bushiness previously as a store owner for years and making a scene is the last thing you want to do when the public is surrounding you. I did say that it was a pity that one man has brought the G&D back to life to so many people and that I felt the "family" would likely appreciate it if they knew of David's layout.

    His attitude towards me, definitely a NMRA bureaucrat, appeared more as a control issue rather than a "protective" issue. Before he left I asked him how he could have possibly known of these items sitting on our table, did someone turn us in? He admitted that yes someone had. I then apologized again but not before letting him know that it is a pity that the G&D history was being stifled further and maybe his organization should be more interested in talking to David about promoting his layout since there has been little or no current publicity for the original. Also, let it be known that this man had no written proof of his claims but I complied to prevent a scene.

    I was boiling on the inside but kept my cool, when folks here say I was upset I want it to be known that I did not show it until he was gone and I was trying desperately to get a hold of David. Thank goodness his dear friends had traveled across country to visit the show in his stead, they were as concerned as I was and more helpful to us than I could ever express. When the dust settles it is most certainly my hope that David's G&D layout might be appreciated even more because of this exposure, albeit not having been exposed properly by the NMRA.

    I understood the fact that there was a possibility that selling a product with the G&D name may have been an infringement but again, no proof was presented to me i writing but I complied anyway. If anyone of you has questions please direct them to me but I will warn you now; this is now a private matter between David and his accusers and is none of our business. I do ask that you give David K Smith your full support in his new endeavors in the production of his new line of tools, structure kits, and layout details because if you do you will be getting top of the line products.
     
  13. Loren

    Loren TrainBoard Supporter

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    Question I have then is 'how much does it take to be similar?' Similar in size, color, texture, shape, dimension? Does making it in a different scale qualify as similar? Seems to me that many things in life are 'similar', but that doesn't stop folks from making their own version of something.
     
  14. BillMock

    BillMock TrainBoard Member

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    I have the rights to make bad recreations for my personal use.

    But selling them for profit while calling them by using a tradmarked name and logo is where I could get into trouble.

    Bill Mock
     
  15. BillMock

    BillMock TrainBoard Member

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    Apple Corps (Beatles) vs. Apple Computer faught that one for years.

    Bill Mock
     
  16. David K. Smith

    David K. Smith TrainBoard Supporter

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    Golly, that's just the tip of the iceberg. How many of these are officially sanctioned?

    http://finetrains.com/O_John_Allen_Loco_House.html

    http://www.thetrain.de/de/downloadarea/gorre-daphetid-heisler-6/

    http://www.clevermodels.net/ho-scale/

    http://silverridgemodelworks.com/clance-hillside-station/

    http://www.highlandbaptist.org/bob/dorsay.htm

    (Some of the items in question are buried on the pages, so some scrolling or searching is required.)
     
  17. Alaska Railroader

    Alaska Railroader TrainBoard Supporter

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    Wow David, great job. You know what you're doing. I wish I had this to hand to him but then again he may have made us close shop if we didn't comply. Model railroad enthusiasts enjoy the preservation of historical railroads, NMRA enjoys all the control they can.
     
  18. HoboTim

    HoboTim TrainBoard Supporter

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    I asked this question some time ago. Failing memory couldn't begin to be accurate as to where or when, but the number 40% still rings in my head as being that number to answer your question. Whether or not that holds true, it sounds about right to me. A 40% change in anything is an almost guarantee for it to be different!

    Just my 2 cents
     
  19. BillMock

    BillMock TrainBoard Member

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    Again, can you say "damages"? loss of business revenue?

    If you have a restraining order against somebody, but allow them to "violate its terms" from time to time for convenience; that restraining order has lost its merit.

    "Trademark"? Really?

    Bill Mock
     
  20. Z_thek

    Z_thek TrainBoard Member

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    I was at the NTS and witnessed a good chunk of the G&D controversy. I'm not educated enough to take sides about trademarks and copy rights, but after learning, the NMRA jury divided the first three awards of the modular layout contest between two Z-scale modelers (actually the second time in recent history), I have to conclude, the NMRA actually warmly welcomes Z-scale as the most innovative and solidly growing scale in the large field of model railroading. So instead of boycotting the NMRA, I strongly encourage to join, participate, build solid presence, then slowly change the status quo to a more up to date mentality. Outside criticism will do nothing but harm, it slows the general acceptance of our scale and delays the appreciation of our efforts.
     

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