I have to admit that I probably fall into the "old dogs and new tricks" category when it comes to DCC. I also fall into the finincial shortness category as well. With that being said I have a few questions that probably do not have very easy answers. I did the same thing in the "inspection Pit" for basics in train room design and got some great feedback. So here goes my bid for DCC questions. First let me say I am in the early building/planning stages of a bedroom size N-scale empire. I have 4 MRC "Tech" series Throttles now. Even with DCC I do not see where I would have much room for more than 4 people/operators at one time anyway.So at most I will be using 4 controllers.I currently have 6 diesels that I would like to convert and maybe 3 steam engines that would be worth converting for a total of 9 engines. New ones I could buy ready to go with the decoders installed. Radio wise I can do without as its not that large of a bedroom and don't have room for a dispatcher of any sort anyway.Unless I use a yard person for that but thats a whole other issue. SO lets say for a "base system" to support 4 throttles and 9 Nscale decoders.Whats the ball park figure I am looking at for a start up price.I know this depends on the system I choose but I have read the heated discussions involving the different brands in some of the other posts. Since I am not ready to decide on a brand, much less if I have decided to do this at all I will go for a "generic price". Under $500.00? Under $1000.00? Next...What sort of compatibility issues are there? I know when DCC was first coming out there was talk of "standards" but I have not been able to see many . Will Brand X controller work With Brand Z power supplies? This goes for decoders as well DO I have to have Brand X Power,controller and decoder? And if they are interchangable what are ball park prices for decoders individually and controllers? Along the same lines, are the newer "decoder equipped" locos universal with the different systems or would I have to be careful buying the correct decoders for which ever sysytem I decide on? Next on a bedroom size layout will I need or would it be reccomended to get "walk around throttles or just fixed ones with a "telephone type" cable that stretches? Next, If I do convert I most probably will have to do it in steps. Is it possible to have a layout wired for Block as well as DCC at the same time? I am not an electrical whiz by any means but have no problem wiring for large block layouts, although I do avoid reverse loops if I can...but hey who doesn't? lol. But if I get some locos equipped with the decoders will they stil run on a block layout or do they become DCC only? And I will make this the last one. I have never seen a DCC wired layout. I have had several various sized layouts over the years and have always had just one "central control panel". Switch buttons,blocks and throttles all in one place so make life easier for me to operate alone. As I understand DCC there are some blocks to make trouble shooting shorts and what not a little easier to narrow down, so I guess there would be a few of of the old block machines left. But If I use walk-around throttles or even the 4 in Strategic spots that remain plugged - in , Do you make a single control panel as such or would you just put the switch buttons on the fascia close to their respective switch? I ask this as I am curious how much space would be needed. I do not need exact dimensions but it sounds like most of a DCC rig could be either on a shelf below the layout or maybe even mounted to the under-side of the layout. With the tethered throttles and location specific switch buttons it seems a control panel would almost be a thing of the past. Again being in that "old dogs and new tricks " category that is kind of hard for me to even imagine. But a great space saver if thats the case. Thanx in advance for any info and I am sure there will be a few more questions in the future. Later Gents
Boy, that is a long question. The short answer is it depends. First of all, you might want to find someone in the Austin area that is into DCC and see what it is like. I am sure there are a lot in that area you just have to start asking around. You could join some of the egroups at yahoo for Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, etc. You also might want to start by getting a copy of the Big Book of DCC. It would address most of your questions about DCC. Let me step through your question: 1. Cost of a complete system per your specifications would be about $650. I got my prices from Tony's Train Exchange. Because I use a Digitrax System I am familiar with the system components so I use that as an example. Digitrax Empire Builder II starter set which includes: Command Station/Booster DT300 full function handheld throttle UP-3 panel to plug throttle into 1 Full function FX decoder $259 Three additional UT-1 utility throttles for your buddies to use when they come over $180 ($60 each) Digitrax Power Supply $40 8 Additional basic N scale decoders (You will have to wire these in) $152 You don't have to get all this stuff all at once. The starter set and the power supply are all you need to get up and running. So you could start at about $309. This Digitrax system, the EB II, is a mid-range system that is fully expandable if you want to do more later as compared to the Atlas and MRC systems. Standards: Yes there is a standard. The standard applies to the information sent to the locomotives over the track. Use any brand of decoder you want. I have Digitrax, NCE, Lenz, and Zimo decoders on my layout and they all work fine. The handheld throttles for all mid-level systems and top level systems are all walk-around type. I am only familiar with ATlas and MRC having a traditional power pack type of controller. I would recommend you go with a walk around type. Yes you can still have DCC and DC block at the same time. Just wire the DCC output to one of the cabs. WARNING: You need to be very careful. If you fail to switch a block and you get a short between a DCC and DC block you could burn up your DC power pack. Also, with DCC you can run one DC (non-decoder equiped) locomotive in addition to all the DCC locomotives you want. If you go DCC you can have all the reverse loops you want. Why avoid them? Numerous reverse loop controllers are available for about $29. Control panels are at your option. You don't have to have any blocks except you will need a place to program your locomotives. This can be a spur with a DPDT switch or it can be a piece of track off the layout that you connect when you want to do your programming. I have a fairly large layout and have small control panels for turnout control scattered all around the layout. These control panels are mounted to drawer slides so I can get them out of the way when not in use. Others have switch controls mounted to the fascia. Your call. If you have some other questions then post again.
Hi Greg........Sorry to say that I too, fall into the "dummy" category.....so I appreciate your questions and the answers given. Your project is quite ambitious...go for it!
Welcome to the TrainBoard family Linda! Tell us about your interests, what scale, post some photos of your layout and equipment. DCC is not all that bad, you can operate your computer, so you got half the job done already. It is not hard to operate, it is just expensive if you already have a lot of engines. If you are starting out, then it wont be any thing to feel dumb about, we will help you if you have questions. OK?
This is very informative topic! I plan to watch it closely as I have been kicking around the idea of converting over to DCC. (Of course...I'll have to get permission from the "boss"!) Thanks for the info on this subject!
I will let others give you the price for what you are after. In Canada, due to the Canadian dollar, it is more costly to buy the same goodies as in the USA. So something that costs $65 American, costs me $100 Canadian. If you are like me, you suffer from hobby poverty so spending a dollar wisely sometimes is in order. So don't plan on starting up with the "entire" system at once. First get the base system, which ever one that is for you. Atlas is coming out with a hand held unit this summer so you can go Atlas if you want (we run Digitrax). My preference is to get the system that does the most (also the most $) because my tastes may change over time, and a feature that I didn't think I would use may become more important over time. For example, I didn't think I would be interested in power routing: this is a system where I input a command and all the turnouts are thrown for you. I have the Chief and I think up to 8 turnouts can be thrown in one routing. I have become more interested in this option as I plan my staging. I like the idea that I can input one command and not have to worry that all the turnouts aren't thrown correctly. But this is not something I will be doing for at least two years or more, however I am glad I have that option in my system. What my son and I did was buy the Chief, then we ran it with only one throttle for about 3/4 of a year until we purchased the cheapie UT throttle (this on another small layout as we build the larger one). It will be another couple of years before I buy additional throttles. I have a smaller layout (but larger for N scale) like yours. We are building in sections, then moving on to the next one so the track will be well run and tested before the layout track work is completed. I wouldn't plan on a "temporary" solution until you make the switch to DCC. The reason is that "temporary" solutions all to often become the permanent answer. You still want blocks, but they don't have to be as refined as for DC running. The purpose of a block is to find the "short" you are inevitably going to have. On your layout (assuming one deck), I would have maybe five blocks - more if you run a double decker. But the purpose of the block is to turn it on and off, that's all. Reversing loops aren't the bad guy like they used to be. It is now possible to have everything happen automatically. The engine will approach the turnout, it is automatically thrown (for mailine running) and the engine keep moving, without lifting a finger. So you can now have continous running on a layout with two reversing loops. You can also throw the turnout if you want to without using the "auto" selection. I have posted this question to the Digitrax forum in Yahoo and told I could do this without any problems. And how to do it. Power supply is interchangeable with any type of DCC. The power supply is often called a booster. Decoders are universal, but some brands (and even within the brand) have more functions than others. Sytems are not interchangeable unless they share the same architecture. Digitrax is on its own; Atlas and Lenz are interchangeable. You can use your MRC DC power pack initially if you need to, but it probably will only have enough juice to run two or three engines. Because DC power packs assume block running, you usually only have one or two (MU'd) engines running in a block, so the power packs didn't need a lot of juice. For a layout your size, the digitrax 5 amp (don't get the altas 3 amp) will be all you really need. DCC simplifies wiring, and the price difference isn't as profound as you might imagine between DCC and DC. First you have way more wiring ($) on a DC system, and more rotary controls ($), etc. With DC, since there is more wiring, there is more chance of errors and problems latter down the pike. Wiring - you run two fat wires (subject to controversy - I will be running 14 guage) called "buses" down your layout. Then attached "feeder" wires to your track (how often you do this is also subject to controversy - every 3 feet seems to be the most popular answer). These feeder wires go from one bus to the track on one side, and the other bus and other side of track. The accepted wire size for this is 22 guage. Quality of electical connection is important in DCC as the electrical system is not only your power, but what the "packets" of information travel through. So better a little over kill than not enough connections. Well, I guess that's it for now. Good luck. By the way, the lay out plans I sent you contained a "non-helix, helix." I couldn't send you an example because I couldn't find any. Yankinoz sent me an example from the magazine - Model Railraod Planning 1998 p.34. John Armstrong designed it (the grandpappy of layout design) and he jokingly called it a "nolix" - based on a pun of no helix. This is the only example I can think of to show you. Area 4 on the plans I sent you contain the "nolix." John Armstron based his nolix on around a 20 inch seperation of deck heights. I didn't know this at the time I was planning my layout.
Here I go again….I just got myself started on DCC. (About six months) The cost for what you want and what it will do is, I think anyway, not part of the equation. I run six locos, all with different decoders. I use an MRC power supply for the “Digitrax booster” and a digitrax power supply for some other things, like switches and lights. I am not a computer whiz and I was on the phone to Digitrax more than once to get me up and running. The service people there are very, very helpful and understanding. And they are not hard to contact. I guess I’ve said mine. Good luck and happy railroading.
Here's my two cents worth: I didn't think I needed DCC... our club had (which was homeless soon after I joined, and still is ) (N Scale NTrak) had a DCC guru who brought his own DCC equipment (including powerpak, throttles, etc) to some of our shows to run. I was somewhat interested, because it did not require "blocking" or an "engineer" who sat in one corner of the layout and controlled the trains. At one of our shows, a vendor had some new Atlas SD50's w/ DCC at 50% off list. Seeing that it was a great deal, I bought a pair, thinking I could run them on DCC at the show to see if I liked them, then sell them on eBay if I didn't. Well, I didn't sell them I enjoyed running on DCC a lot! In fact, the "guru" and I ran bi-directionally on the Red Line at our show and it was a crowd stopper! I was hooked! I have since been trying to upgrade or replace my locos with DCC only variants! As far as expense, yes it costs more, in general. However, I'd much rather have fewer DCC locos that I could program and run as I please than to have a many more analog locos that are tied to a powerpak (yes, you can use Aristo wireless throttles, with limitations.) Anyway, it is a big step. Our club has now increased the capabilities to run DCC on the Red and Yellow lines, as well as the yard. It makes operating at a show so much more fun! Check out our club webpage at: http://www.trainweb.org/nrmrc/ Harold
To RSN48: Good response but I need to correct one item. You stated, "Power supply is interchangeable with any type of DCC. The power supply is often called a booster." The power supply and the booster are two completely different items. The power supply is a transformer that typically has an input CB/Fuse and an output CB/Fuse. It provides power to the booster. The booster takes power from the power supply and converts it to the required voltage and sends it out to the track along with the DCC signal. Another item I would like to clarify is the use of regular power packs to provide power to boosters. If you use a power pack that has a rated output of less than the booster rating, the built in short circuit protection function of the booster won't work. For example, if you use the Digitrax DCS100 command station/booster that is rated at 5 amps, you need a power supply that puts out at least 5 amps. If you get a short on the track the booster section will shut down until the short is fixed. If you use a power supply that only puts out 1.5 amps (typical power pack) then the booster will not shut down and you run the risk of melting something. Just a couple of things to think about. NCNG [ 23 May 2001: Message edited by: ncng ]
Thanks for the heads up...and for penance...I will go read about boosters in the Big Book of DCC....lol.
My Big Book of DCC should be here by next Monday. N Scale Supply shipped it UPS and I have been tracking the books process though the UPS system. N Scale Supply had the best price on the book that I could find on the net or at the local book store.
It is a good book and better than the video you will get if you buy digitrax. However, to be fair to digitrax, the video they offer is sure to cure even the most severe case of insominia.
Mopartex, I have read all the above posts, and there is nothing I can add to help you on your way,everyone has given you excellent and thourough advice. Keep tuned to this forum and keep asking questions we all find a great deal of satisfaction helping newbes get settled in with DCC. If I had to mention anything else it is to check out Alan Gartner's web site 'wiring for DCC',now Alan is an electrical engineer and sometimes his advice is overkill, but you will never go wrong following it. There is one item he mentions that I found particularly useful. It was a resistance soldering station. I'm using all Tortoise switch machines and after installing the 40th of I don't know how many that soldering machine paid for itself many times over. Good Luck, keep in touch
