DCC Product refreshes?

Anybody know how often, if, or when the major DCC players tend to refresh their system product lines?

I'm finally looking to buy in, and I have a terrible luck with buying right before the vendor comes out with something newer, better, and cheaper.

Right now, I'm debating the Zephyr vs. PowerCab for my N-scale HCD. I like NCE's user interface, not fond of the Zephyr "toy train controls" style and LED display, but I'm leaning toward the Digitrax internals.

I do NOT want to debate Digitrax vs. NCE again in this thread, but am looking for gossip about when something newer/better might be coming down the pike from either vendor...

So, what's the scuttlebutt? Anything coming down the pike for the small layout type guy?

 

I have not seen any new ideas on DCC systems for a while. A new throttle here and a upgrade on a command station there, but that is about it.
That does not mean that there is something new just around the corner.
If you wait for the newest releases ( not knowing what is coming down the pike) I don't think that you will ever buy a system. Sort of like waiting for the best in a computer. You buy one and it is out of date before you get home. I don’t think that the DCC world moves that fast!
Most of the known systems, if they come out with something new, will make the updates work with existing systems. So most of the time you can upgrade without pitching your $$ out the window.
.

 

Thanks. I won't be waiting for the latest/greatest just because. I'm looking at the Zephyr, which was released at least EIGHT YEARS AGO, and I'm frustrated that the system sized to fit my layout still has a 4-digit LED display. They can't go forever without a refresh, and NCE has a much more functional and human-readable display at the same price point. Which makes me suspect (again) that Digitrax won't let that go very long without updating the Zephyr. Which puts me at some kind of odds of dropping $150+ on a system, and then they come out with a better system in 3 months for $125, or something.

Or I go with NCE and realize that having LocoNet would have suited my needs...

It's all good one way or another (which is why I didn't want to start an A vs. B argument in this thread)...

I think I'm going to fire off an email to customer service. Maybe they'll give me a clue, maybe not.

 

Both of those systems offer a good add-on upgrade path. I am most familiar with Digitrax's, but I hear the same about NCE.

I don't know if it is terribly likely that they will be throwing out everything any time soon and coming out with DCC 2.0b or whatever the next big thing is, but then again they used to predict that rock and roll would never survive.

:tb-wacky:

 

I'm not worried about the next gen product obsoleting the current gen. That would be business suicide.

I'm concerned about choosing NCE over Digitrax based on the absolutely ancient user interface of the Zephyr, and then Digitrax coming out two weeks later with a Zephyr replacement that has - for example, and a very real possibility - at least the same interface/display as their handhelds, or even better. And then me wishing I'd waited just a little longer.

Right now, if I ignore the user interface, Zephyr (well, really, the "under the covers" Digitrax system) gets a slight nod due to LocoNet and a few other minor things. Toss in the user interface, and the scale tips heavily the other way, see...

So I was hoping maybe somebody had an inside scoop or had heard from the Digitrax guys at a convention somewhere saying something like "Oh yeah, that thing is dead. We've got a new one coming out by Christmas" or "No, we're not touching Zephyr ever again. If people don't like that display, they can add a handheld..."

Just so I could get a peek at the crystal ball and make an informed decision.

I suppose I could solve the whole thing by getting a Digitrax handheld and stuffing the Zephyr under the covers, but that nearly doubles the cost of the system...

 

I have been happy with my Zephyr. I have been able to program using it. I like the little control lever for the throttle, and I still want to make use of the Jump ports. I am nearly there.

I have a DT402 throttle for use at my club that I also bring home to use sometimes with the Zephyr. I don't have any inside info on any imminent replacement of the Zephyr, but it will work just fine as a 2.5 a command station if you decide to plug a few throttles into the Loconet system.

 

Well the one thing that I would say is that if a new system is going to come on the market it will be in the same price range. I can't see either manufacture lowering the price that much.
If you are still undecided, download the manuals from each system and see which one has the features you will be happy with.

 

I am reading both user manuals. That's what highlighted the difference in the UI's to me.

What I need to do is read the user manual for a DT402 class throttle. If its UI isn't at least competitive with NCE's, then it's unlikely that they will put an even better interface on their bottom end product. That, plus the existence of the MiniPanel, might answer my question.

 

The manual for the DT402 is typical of Digitrax documentation - really comprehensive but kind of hard to read. If you can go to a shop and try both of them out that would probably be best.

 

You took the words right out of my reply!

This is a great tip. Use either the Zephyr or the Super Chief so you can read back the CV's. Get the Loconet USB from R&R Circuits and download JMRI's DecoderPro and you have a system that can be stable and fully functional for years.

I would have to say the while the UI on the NCE throttle is very good, Digitrax and Loconet has more third party vendors like Team Digital and others that fully support Loconet. There was a tale told by Tony's Trains that DCC Specialties was going to release a quad port stationary turnout codename Jack Rabbit that was also going to support direct Loconet connections but it has not surfaced yet.

The salient point is that you identified the internals that best suited your ideas of implementing DCC, and that should be the road you follow. You can run the entire layout from JMRI, so there is no need to even have a throttle if you didn't want one.

In the end, it may be better to be happy with the overall system and have a slightly less performing throttle, than the super throttle and not be happy with the overall layout.

In the end, it is a draw between the two systems, where they differ is in the availble accesories. And it is the accesories that bring the life to the layout.

 

I'm just speculating, but I,d bet that Digitrax won't be introducing new throttles since they just came out with the Duplex systems. And Zephyr seems to have a comfortable market position as an entry DCC system.

Either way, after evaluating different model railroad software, I think the manufacturer's physical interface is becoming less important to me. As I can now run my railroad from my iPad.laugh:

 

Two replys that pre-empted me! DANG!

The Zephyr UI, at 8 years old (has it been that long?), may be ancient in computer terms, but in DCC terms it's merely "mature". The LED based display does the job and does it well. From a product line standpoint it makes little sense to develop a new UI for the Z without other "revenue positive" feature additions, but then you are into SuperChief class, which uses the DT402 throttle for it's UI (which you can also use with the Z).

For really slick UIs (relatively speaking), the JMRI suite (Decoder Pro for programing and on-screen throttles and turnout controls, Panel Pro, SSl and Logix, etc. etc.) should satisfy your internal geek. Add throttle apps for iDevices and Android and you can make that little Zephyr really hum (although they also can interface to NCE, so maybe that makes then sort of equal). In any event, you are ulimately chosing an internal architecture of the DCC system, something that Digitrax has designed to be about as "future-proof" as possible.

As I said before though, both systems are excellent. Ford or Chevy.

 

Good points, Doug.

I was intentionally discounting the JMRI/iPhone deal (though I fully intend to use it!!) precisely because it will work with either system, and therefore is a net zero. Plus, I have a technical issue in that my only working computer is upstairs from the train room, well out of USB range, and nobody seems to have Ethernet connectivity for their systems...

I'm not sure I agree with you that it makes no sense for Digitrax to upgrade Zephyr. I think it makes lots of sense.

Here's my logic:

Both the Zephyr and PowerCab are marketed to entry level customers who don't want to spend hundreds of dollars on a "high end" DCC system (yet). These customers are also not usually as impressed with the under-the-covers architecture stuff as they are with the ease-of-use and user friendliness.

It's been at least 2002 since the Zephyr was released (c.f. the product awards on the Zephyr product page). I'm not sure about the PowerCab, but likely it's considerably newer. PowerCab is cheaper on the street, and is widely touted (on the boards) as being more user friendly. Not to mention that both Bachmann and MRC also have nicer displays, though they're both a little more expensive than Zephyr or PowerCab.

This puts Zephyr at a competitive disadvantage. Zephyr is also obviously (even to the non-technical observer) significantly out-of-date in user interface (though not really under the covers) compared to the rest of Digitrax's own product line.

I don't know what the actual sales are. Maybe Zephyr is whipping the pants off of PowerCab based on the "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" thing. Maybe I'm wrong about the entry level folks scoring UI above guts. Maybe plenty of them are swayed by the "Oh, you can add a handheld throttle later, if you decide you want it."

But it wouldn't be very hard at all to replace those LEDs with a simpler version of the 402 LCD display. They can even keep the "train knobs". I'm not personally in favor of it, but I bet my kids would LOVE them, as they do resemble actual train cab controls to at least some extent.

I'm just not so sure Digitrax would let NCE have such a clear user interface advantage over them for very long without doing something, when a simple conversion from LED to LCD would make a big difference. Unless there's some really compelling reason.

Oh, and just to sweeten the pot, a quick check at DigiKey shows that 16x2 LCD alphanumeric displays are significantly cheaper than 4-digit LED, so there's a potential cost reduction to be had by upgrading the display.

So, that's my reason for suspecting that something new (or at least mildly updated) will be coming in the $150 (street) range from Digitrax... IMHO the question is when, not if... which is why I'm asking if anybody's heard any scuttlebutt on the issue. I'd really hate to buy an 8+ year old product with a 1970s era user interface only to have them upgrade it at Christmas.

*Disclaimer: I'm ragging pretty hard on that LED display on the Zephyr. I've already said the guts of the box appear easily competitive with, if not slightly better than (especially in terms of upgrade- and expandability) PowerCab. In fact, it's precisely BECAUSE the display seems so out of touch with the internals that I'm picking on it.

 

This is a very, very good point.

The reason for starting this thread is that I'm pretty much completely sold on Digitrax for just the reasons you mentioned (3rd party support of LocoNet, etc.). I'm sure a 402 throttle or two is also on the road map.

But my entry point WILL be either a Zephyr or a PowerCab, due to budget constraints. And I really don't like that LED display on the Zephyr.

I'd hate to settle for those LEDs only to have Digitrax fix my only beef a few weeks/months later. Especially if there's already scuttlebutt about a Zephyr 2 out there (apparently there's not...) and waiting just a little bit would score me something I'd be really happy with.

See my response to DStuard for my logic why I suspect there will be a Zephyr upgrade/replacement in the not-too-distant future, and thus why I'm trolling for gossip.

If I knew with pretty good certainty that there would be no "Zephyr 2" forthcoming in the foreseeable future, I'd just shut up and buy one now. But it's at least 8 years old and (see my other reply) IMHO ripe for a refresh.

 

I'm no insider, but Digitrax is a small company (as is NCE) and likely cannot simultaneously devote significant resources to multiple development projects (the most recent of which was the duplex radio system). It may very well be that an upgrade to a "Z2" is in the skunk works (although I've heard nothing either), but until the Z is at a competitive disadvantge to the PowerCab and starts to lose market share, I doubt that they will pull the trigger on an upgrade. Even if they did, at the price point we are talking about, features and function would see few (if any) changes. The display might be more 21st century, but it would provide little or no additional information. In the end, most folks who expand their layouts move to hand helds in any case.

Like the song says: "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life......"

 

Another thing I'd like to add:

I don't know the exact timeline, but I remember hearing that Digitrax was working on the Duplex throttle back a couple of years before release. I even saw a video of a presentation at model railroad clubs and demonstrations at train shows well before it was released. I'd suspect there would be some advanced knowledge, testing and marketing before other new releases.

 

Aah!! Now this is interesting and useful! (Not that the discussion so far hasn't been!)...

If Digitrax's modus operandi is to preview and shop around their prototypes well in advance of release, and if they have NOT been doing so with Zephyr (which, apparently, they have not), THEN it stands to reason that a Zephyr upgrade is at least that far away from happening.

Add in Doug's good point about the company not being large enough to support multiple development cycles, and...

Hrm....

Well, it'll be a few months before I get the bench and track work ready for significant power. Maybe I'll just keep my powder dry for a while just in case... or spend the $$$ on turnouts...

 

I haven't found the Zephyr interface to be that big of a problem. I am mainly looking at the trains, anyway.

I don't think you could really go wrong with either system.

 

About the only system I know of that may be coimming out, is the long anticipated TCS command station. They have had a prototype for a while, but I have no idea if it is ever comming out or what the price point will be.

If you want to see the best UI system, check out the ESU ECoS system. Touch screen operation and lots of other cool things, except the price. It goes for $600 if I remember correctly.

http://www.esu.eu/en/products/digitale-steuerung/ecos-50200-dcc-system/ecos-50200-dcc-system/

I am honestly thinking about getting one of those, and if I do, I can make you a very good deal on a Digitrax Super Chief.