My canoers are trying to make it to shore after almost being capsized by a giant bubble. They are dreaming of catching world record size fish. They are also wandering how the fish got in this new (~1 year old) stream and lake. There were a couple of bubbles in the lake when it was filled. But now after about one year they are poping up all over. They don’t appear in the very shallow water and a few places in the deep water do not have any, yet. Something fishy is going on and it’s the result of some (or total) ignorance on my part. Looking for good ideas on how to fix this problem. It would also be nice to know how to avoid this problem in the future. I expect to get a lot of “fishy” replies also; but that is OK. The water is on a polyurethane base with coat of latex paint and then acrylic washes. Bob
Identifying what went wrong is the chore at hand. It certainly appears that something is trying to emit gas out from underneath. Was everything dry, long before your pour? I have doubts this can be salvaged.
I'm guessing the air is coming from maybe something in the water contaminating it? It makes sense to me that if there was moisture in the polyurethane or Woodland Scenics product that it would have poured clear and been trapped in the mix but now has dried up and evaporated leaving a "bubble" where it was. Just speculating. Maybe it was poured to deep? Did you check w/Woodland Scenics and see what they had to say?
I am dealing with the same problem with WS Realistic water. I poured my "rivers" two years ago (summer of 2011) and within a few weeks I started getting a few big bubbles, localized near the edge of the layout. It seemed like it had stopped for a while, so I thought it was an immediate curing issue and wasn't going to progress any more. NOW, two years later, my rivers are filling with small bubbles all over, and it seems to be a constant thing. Luckily, it kind of has the appearance of "bubbling rapids" now...but I still wonder what causes it. I poured it according to directions, two coats about 1/8" thick, over a base of latex paint which in turn covered pink extruded foam insulation board. Granted, my layout - up until a few weeks ago - has been in an unheated, uncooled garage for the past two years as well, but I would have thought that once cured, the 'water' would be stable.
Somewhere I have an article written by Dave Frary about this brand of water material. As I recall, he warned against even using it.
BoxcabE50: All the paint was dry to the touch before the water was added. There was little light spackling in one small area that apparently wasn’t dry. It mixed with the water and looks like foam just before waterfall (not shown in pictures). The humidity could have been too high (70-80%). I now have a dehumidifier in the basement. John: Good idea. I may try this on the lake if (and after) I dig it out of the layout. Don’t want to experiment on the layout. Txronharris: The bubbles are expanding indicating something more active that water evaporating. I did apparently pour some of the water to deep. I have not check with Woodland Scenics. I am assuming (for now) that it is connected with something I did wrong. Jerry: Sorry it is happening to you also!!! But it is nice to know that I have company in the “sinking canoe”. BoxcabE50: You are right. I did a web search and found this http://www.freerails.com/view_topic.php?id=1282. Bob
The slightest bit of moisture and it fails. I fear that dry to touch was not quite enough. Glad you found that article. I have it downloaded on a disk somewhere. I saw his post on a different place than linked.
Wow...I guess WS never figured it out - that article is from 2007. Oh well, as I said, at least 90% of my bubbles are very small and give sort of a realistic rushing water look. Mostly. The BIG bubbles that came early on were on the deepest (thickest) areas of application (I painted them as rocks in the water!) Paint under the realistic water was basic Walmart craft acrylics, given at least a day to dry - and that stuff dries pretty fast. RT - looks like your bubbling is pretty aggressive! Which is depressing because that stream setup with your rocks and canoes looked fantastic otherwise. maybe replace them with some helmeted kayakers doing a stretch of class IV whitewater?
Two and a half years ago I poured some of this on the club layout. Surface was joint compound covered with liquitex acrylics and dried over multiple days. I also poured it on top of existing water which was the WS melting water product. Zero bubbles and zero discoloration. This is in central valley temps with some but not much insulation
All: The bubbles (their variable intensity and size) have no discernibly relation to the probable water content in the base at the time the water was poured! The only “bubble” relationship (that I can discern) is to the thickness of the water and to the thickness of the individual applications (my fault, not Woodland Scenics). The only relationship to their recent growth rate (that I can discern) has been the use of a dehumidifier to reduce high humidity. Jerry: The “whitewater” is a great idea, but the way the bubbles are growing I will have to be constantly upgrading the classification and be in constant danger of getting sued by the participants. I will be doing a lot of web research before I redo the water, and I am interested in recommendations on what to use for "moving" water. Bob
Paint can feel dry to the touch in just a day or 2. However, it may continue to outgas for some time until it is truly dry. On my current layout, I painted the river bottom using an acrylic paint and allowed it to dry for over 2 weeks. Then I made my 1st thin pour of RW. Initially, there were some small bubbles. Following a suggestion I read on Woodland Scenic's web site a while ago, I sprayed alcohol over the areas where there were bubbles. This softened the product allowing the bubbles to escape. Worked well. Once all these bubbles are out, I plan on waiting another week or 2 before my next pour. Taking my time, allowing everything to dry thoroughly seems to help. Carl
Yup. Exactly what I noted in my earlier post, and I'm sticking to it. The amount of moisture needed to create a single bubble is very tiny, and that is probably what the dehumidifier is trying to draw out, possibly even making the bubbling a bit worse.
Carl: Thanks for the alcohol suggestion. I tried some and it does soften the water some. Unfortunately my water problem is too far gone for this treatment. BoxcabE50: I certainly can’t argue with you! Although I am wondering if the realistic-water has any original H2O content. Until more information is available, I would highly recommend that the completed water not be put in an environment with significantly lower humidity that it was dried in. At least not until it is completely dried, when ever that is. Bob
This is obviously swamp gas rising in your water which is, of course, part of WS's ultra realistic water.
JB: I think I have found the sources of the "swamp gas". I wish that I would have found the Woodland Scenics “FQA and Tips” before pouring my water. The information relevant to this thread is as follows: “Finding a true 100% acrylic paint can be difficult. Most craft paints, including premium brands, contain vinyl fillers. The vinyl in paint will have an adverse reaction with Realistic Water.” “Realistic Water will not "attack" the foam, but if it is not prepared and sealed properly, it may release gases into the Realistic Water, causing bubbling and other issues. It is very important to cover an extruded foam base with a few layers of Plaster Cloth, being careful to fill all the holes.” THANK YOU WOODLAND SCENICS!!! A note in your instructions to check your web site for the latest and most detailed information would be a big help to us newbie’s. As near as I can tell, one or both of these are the major contributors to my problem. Bob
Well what I am gleaning from these posts is to make dang sure the paint has had time to dry - but how much is enough? Yoho - who had some success -poured his over a decent brand acrylic (Liquitex) as well as over a previously poured and cured WS water product. RT, I don't know what brand acrylic/latex you used - I used el cheapo wally world brands, meant for craftwork. I wish I had known of the alcohol-spray technique when I applied mine. Although...the majority of my bubbling waited a good year and a half to really get started. The idea that low humidity may make this worse is paradoxical for a layout, where in my view low humidity is a good thing. The fact that WS is still selling this stuff is disappointing. I consider them a good company, but I'm not going to use this particular product again.
Bringing some closure to this thread? It will probably be a year or two before I retry this product and it has time to “dry” enough to check for “swamp gas” bubbles. I hope that I will remember to post the results. In the interest of lessons learned: My first mistake was not looking for more realistic instructions after ignoring the instructions that to me look like they were written by the marketing department. Bob
