You know how much the people at Kato and Peco make? And what's a real wage anyway? Depending on where you live, etc, I have no idea. Not to challenge you, but there's too much room for discussion there. Ok, MSRP for a new release of a Kato loco is $135 from their website. From Atlas the MSRP for their newest 6 axle is $124 and change. What retailers charge is their business. Micro Trains new releases are all over $20 now unless you change to Nn3. AND Micro Trains does not make track, nor did they make the GP20's they sold. Don't forget the newer players to the freight car game either. Their products all are over $20-$30 as well. No matter where production is. ME has been hard to get in the past. Peco too, at least around here. So it does seem Atlas is still priced lower by varying degrees in looking at your other comparisons. Of course the market is demanding more and more detailed freight cars, so more labor to add them at the factory. Anyway, hasn't Atlas always had their production, of N scale anyway, done by some one else? I've got older, and I mean, older cars with "made in Yugoslavia" on them. Europe's had a few hobby mfg's close shop lately was well. I think Atlas always had more lead time when things went south on them. This was all of a sudden between one mfg closing in China and the other bought by the competition. So a double whammy that not many could have predicted. If they just changed their business model over night, I cannot think of the capital expenditures needed to start production here. Probably bankrupt them, just a guess though. Then there would no doubt be the shortage of product to the consumer while the new production facility was up and operating at full capacity. Here we go again.......
I'm sure the Japanese and British workers at Kato and Peco make more than their U.S. counterparts where wages are low by first world standards but the debate here isn't about price or politics, it's about availablity, it's not much use if the turnouts you need to complete your layout cost a few dollars less if you've got to wait a few years for some factory in China to make them. Perhaps Atlas could follow Kato's And Peco's lead and make the track themselves while still getting locomotives and cars made wherever is cheapest.
Since the subject has been brought up about Atlas making track in the USA, how hard could that really be? I am assuming the rail is extruded, the ties are molded and then a machine to put the rails into the ties. On the turnouts, there are probably machining processes for the point, etc. and then some more assembly. I am sure it is more complicated, but those of you in the manufacturing industry, what else is involved?
I agree! Not too long ago I saw a couple brand spanking new standard Atlas switches on the bay. The seller was asking 50 smackers each! I actually thought ( for a moment, then laughed ) that some one on Trainboard had the audacity to that. Just to see IF someone would bite. Sent from my Commando
I´m sorry to read about that problem with Atlas track, but normaly such great managementfaults will kick you out of buisness. I just cheched the availability of track here in Old europe, you can get everything also ME but no Atlas Code 55 and if i wanted to build a new layout using a different brand will be my decision.
If it weren't about price, then Atlas would have a production facility here and cranking out track by the mile. Atlas feels they can't produce track at a competitive price here. I don't know the whys or hows, but it's obvious they don't think they can by the absence of a facility. As far as starting one here now, if they can't product track at a competitive price now, there's no way to put out a capital outlay for a new facility and somehow produce it at a lower cost. Be nice if they could though. But unlikely to happen in the current economic climate anyway.
Do people really think the major reason companies moved their productions overseas in the first place wasnt for a better profit margin ? (a) they can hire workers at very low wages (such as 30 cents an hour in China), (b) the companies don't have to pay any employee benefits, (c) they don't have to comply with safety and environmental regulations, (d) they don't have to pay foreign taxes when they export their products back to us. It does a lot for their bottom line when they move production to a foreign tax-free utopia. However...when production stops or some other problem rears its ugly head and product becomes unavailable...profits go down. When production starts again you can bet the company will raise the price of the product to make up for that lost revenue. A vicious circle and we as consumers are expected to pay for it ! In todays economy the savvy consumer will look for the best deal they can find. When product is unavailable and/or prices go up they will give a good hard look at the competitions product. If they can find a comparable product at a lower price...guess which one they are going to buy ? Just my opinion and you are free to disagree. Thnxs
Businesses exist to make money for their creators and investors. Remove that, limit it, and we'll watch as startups slow or stop. If we were back a few decades, in what was still not a totally global economy, where North America did not face the intense outside competition, things might be different. And with today's economy, as noted, many people MUST shop very carefully. It's either stretch those meager discretionary dollars, or find something else to do for a hobby. Too many who have not felt the pinch, cannot seem to comprehend.
I agree....but how hugh do those profits have to be at the expense of walking all over the consumer and his bottom dollar ? All I can say is...what happened to "Give the consumer a good product at an affordable price." Everyday I feel fortunate that I was able to do what I did when I did. A small windfall (at the expense of my health) got me a nice layout built and a few nice locomotives to run on it. However...I go out and open the door and walk into the layout room, look around and curse myself because now I cant afford something as simple as a bag of static grass to finish up some scenery...grrrrr.
The age old cry for things to be "fair." What is fair? Reality is, if we are honest, that is not definable. And, do we actually know what a "profit" is, after ALL costs of doing business? We read or hear "such and such" corporation had a million dollars in sales last year. But did they make a single penny in profit? All too often it is assumed they did, big time. Did they? When left alone, the market will usually take care of itself. Just as we are reading here, people shop around for the best deal, or do not buy. That's how it's supposed to be done. But there always comes the cry for regulation. And that never works as intended. Instead, usually creating more problems. The most obvious is cost of regulation, which in the end gets passed through to you, raising prices...! The best possibility is for people to go through the sweat and pain of creating a business. That teaches some very interesting lessons, which too few will ever know.
as far as price, that's simple economics really. The price will only go as high as the market is willing to bear. Basically when they stop selling product due to price and not making said profits. Sure it hurts those of us on fixed incomes first as our discretionary income is limited, or at least fixed at best. And usually we are the ones who have more time for a hobby being "more experienced" in life. Okay, older. But there obviously must be strong demand for product as they are still profitable from what I can see. I agree profit is not an ugly word. It's what's behind the profit number you have to look at like mentioned above. A corporate profit of $1 million dollars on sales of $100 million dollars is not going to keep a business running for long if that trend continues year after year. Not much capital to work with to maintain, expand or upgrade facilities for a penny profit on each dollar spent. What's a fair profit? Depends on who you talk to undoubtedly. I can't say for sure. I am not even going to try. Create a business???? ahhhh not thanks. I ran a cost center for a small company for years, which was akin to running a small business but without the stress of losing my own money. All I had to worry about was not getting the boot when I messed up and cost them money, which thankfully was rare. I've family that run a business as well as friends. They all have my respect as it's a challenge for sure to put it mildly. Once the current production hotbed has become too expensive, I am willing to bet it will move to another location and the process will repeat itself. How'd we get to the current hot bed anyway. Especially for niche industries such as hobbies. There will always be exceptions to that generalization for sure.
Yup. That's exactly what I meant about people shopping around, or not buying. Yup. I'm there. Not much can be done, but to keep on rolling, albeit at a slower pace. Yup. Sounds like a lot, to the inexperienced. That's just one percent. A very tiny amount. In reality, nowhere near enough. Exactly what is happening right now. As wages and benefits have risen for many workers, to compensate for falling profits, quality has been sacrificed by some companies. Some have relocated, others have simply closed their doors. The cycle rolls on. It always will....
What upsets me the most are the people who are angry with and want to fire the CEOs who earn six and seven digit salaries. But it's those same CEOs who have the vision, expertise, and charisma to start a company, and make it successful. Furthermore, it's those same CEOs who have maintained, even added steady, good paying jobs for employees who are willing to work producing quality products. I challenge all those who are criticizing price increases and/or delayed deliveries to start their own Con-Cor, Atlas, Model Power, Kato, etc., and have it be still operating and profitable after five years. My Father-In-Law often said "Do Not Criticize A Man Until You Have Walked At Least A Mile In His Shoes." I also am disappointed in price increases and delayed deliveries, but my griping without being on the inside offering a realistic suggestion does nothing to help solve it. I'm sure that Atlas, etc., are doing everything in their power to keep us, their customers happy. But sadly, there are some things that even a successful company like Atlas have no control over, so they go to a Plan B, or C, or D, or......... Hang in there, Paul.
Not wanting to be misunderstood...I'm not wishing anyone bad luck...I hope Atlas rebounds. BUT...We still have the right to p**s and moan. :rats::angry: I think its even written in the Constitution somwhere. :closedmouth:
Yes. You do. You might lose your model railroaders license, without airing some sort of complaint. Now, how about yet another what's happening "inside the RV today" update?
