I am looking for suitable signals and it is difficult to find ready made triple head 3 light target signals. Even the individual heads seem to be pretty rare to find (even if just the head without the LEDs). I am seeing some good option for searchlight signals though, and it is definitely easier to wire them. My question is how much will I be deviating from the prototype if I use search light signals as opposed to 3 light targets, leaving everything else the same. I know for sure that New York Central used search light signals, but not sure if they used it in their Adirondacks division in the 40's (my locale and era). Another thing I am noticing is that because of less wiring and piping, searchlights seem to be more true to scale and less clunky. Let me know what you guys think. Thank you, Kaustav
I'm not sure if that's actually what you meant to write, but I'll clarify it as well as I can: Notice above that there is NO 2-headed (high) version of Medium Clear. Red over Green is reserved for SLOW speed movements. The MEDIUM speed requires that third Red. This is by design and is a bit of a logical quirk of some speed signaling systems, like the NYC's. The reason for this is, early on, railroads only had low speed switches, and 2-headed signals were the norm. Eventually some faster switches (today's MEDIUM speed) started being used, as it was quickly realized that slowing trains down costs money. It was cheaper to add a third lamp for the rarer MEDIUM speed and not have to change all the majority SLOW speed signals when MEDIUM speed was introduced. When LIMITED speed was eventually added, it was cheaper and easier to not require a third Red for it, since the presence or absence of that third Red introduces no ambiguity because no other speeds use flashing aspects. (And, should flasher failure occur, it would safely downgrade to SLOW or MEDIUM speed.) Quite a few speed-signaled railroads followed this 2-head-means-SLOW quirk, but it was not universal. A very few speed signaling implementations have changed the top head to Lunar White to indicate SLOW speed on a 2-head signal (for signaling schemas where normally 3 heads are required). I'd also like to point out that the 1956 NYC Rules posted earlier even show a 3-headed dwarf signal for MEDIUM speed. I can't claim to know how common this actually was, but in later years 3-headed dwarfs became rather taboo (they're too tall and too expensive) and the eventual solution for that was to instead flash ("bump-up") the lower red aspect for MEDIUM speed, which is shown in my diagram here. This can be seen on my current NORAC Signal Rules chart, as an example. Those are not meant to indicate "searchlight" signal heads. Those are marker lamps (a signal head with just one color) because there is no high-speed route at those signals. (As Al Krug would say, “the high speed route is impassible.”) For example, if you pass by signal [1E], you are either going to go through a SLOW speed switch [2], or a MEDIUM speed switch [4]. There is always a switch, so there is no high-speed route. The way these marker lamps are displayed will vary by railroad, era, and signal-head position. As @BnOEngrRick points out, the NYC common solution on the "Style G" signals would be to blank-out the Yellow and Green (as I show on signal [3E]), but there were exceptions (especially on the lowest head) because single-lamp units are cheaper; and things were also different on their searchlight installations. Because I only show the lamps I think you would need on each signal, but because it's not likely you'll find suitable model signals, and because I must claim ignorance at how adept your model RR signaling implementation can be at being capable of implementing things as I laid them out, some creative license on if and how you approach this can surely be forgiven.
This is what I could track down till now - both are NJ International products, but the 1280 seems to be a discontinued, old product. I am apprehensive about the quality of that one. This is NJI 1280 - I am not even sure if the store have 5 of these in stock, I inquired and waiting to hear back. However, from the photo it looks like a very old item. This is NJI 1360 - Looks much cleaner and appealing to me. I believe I can get hold of 5 of these. For dwarf signals, none of the ready made ones look like the NYC dwarf signals and I think I will have to build them from the scratch, or sacrifice the authenticity there. Comments and suggestions welcome. Kaustav
Well, that's what I understood from the link that you shared earlier - in section under 'One Head, Two Head', it is said that whenever a head was removed from a mast, it used to be the slower head - so in a mast that has two signal heads basically indicates the high speed and medium speed aspects and the slow speed aspect is redundant; and for a mast with one head denotes just the high speed aspects where medium and slow speed aspects are redundant. Coming back to your design, if the smaller high speed heads are basically marker lights, then in situations when the train has to stop at the next signal, how will I give the 'Approach' signal at 1E and 7W? One of the most common operational element in this layout is that the trains will stop at 9W/11W or 7E/9E. I do see that option for 3E and 5E, but didn't see them in 1E or 7W, hence I was confused.
This is a question I'll have to defer to others more versed in NYC lore, because I do not know the specific practices of the NYC in particular areas off the top of my head. As I said in my last response, some creative license can surely be forgiven, though. It really depends on how authentic you're determined to be. Alas, authenticity costs time and/or money. I suspect that might even have bulbs versus LEDs? I admit I am not a model railroader, really, so it's easy for me to sit here and hypothetically strive for accuracy and perfection. But one thing I really appreciate on model signals, especially LED ones, is a proper green color. I consider lime-green LED signals to be an abomination and my first priority would be to find model signals which have the proper aqua-green color. Because of this, I would expect to have to build signals for myself from scratch, but such signals do exist. Whether they exist that suit your purpose here I do not know (but hopefully someone else can chime in). Full disclosure: I am not sure what the NYC's colorlight dwarfs all looked like, but I would expect they used GRS dwarf signals, of which there are several designs. I picked one and put it on my diagram earlier. But most any dwarf would fit the bill, I would think, especially for the Red/Yellow ones.
In an ideal scheme, that is how it would work. Mr. Krug more-or-less demonstrates an "ideal" schema. Like I said, there can be many subtle differences between different signal systems. Some speed signaling systems will have (non-dwarf) Red over Green mean Medium Clear and some will have it mean Slow Clear. For the NYC, it always means Slow Clear, for the reasons I explained above. It is an arbitrary break of the logic of the system, one you just have to memorize. But because this varies across different railroads and eras, it's important to carefully study and understand the rules for a given railroad and locale. This is also where criticisms of the different American signal systems come from...the same signal aspect can mean vastly different things on different railroads! (Please also remember that dwarf signals follow different design principles because of the desire to keep them at one or two signal heads. Mr. Krug's logic explanations only apply to high, non-dwarf signals.) Yes, those signals cannot show Approach, because there is no High-speed route. But they can show Medium Approach (Rule 286). In fact, signal [1E] should not ever show Medium Clear (hence no Green light on its second head) because [9E] either shows Stop (R/R/R), Restricting (R/R/Y), Medium Clear (R/G/R), or Medium Approach (R/Y/R). Medium Approach is the best indication to show on [1E] for all of these indications on [9E]. A train passing [1E] en route to signal [7E] would get Restricting instead of an "approach". Switch [2] is a SLOW speed switch (in my world), and a high signal cannot show Slow Approach. Ideally, [7E] would have three heads also, but the top two would be red marker lights, but I did not show this because it can be accomplished with two signal heads and would be more expensive for you to implement. Signal [7E] only shows Stop, Restricting, or Slow Clear. This means a train passing [1E] en route to it would only ever get Restricting on [1E]. To make this even more complicated, if the normal speed limit of the track is slow enough (e.g. 15 MPH), a "clear" (e.g. Slow Clear) could lead to a "slow" aspect to avoid a train having to travel at Restricted speed a considerable distance... but I doubt that situation is common, and today in a "truer" speed signaling system would be frowned upon.
You can also simplify your implementation greatly by making all of the switches Slow speed. You said you intend your layout to focus on low-speed operations. Because you indicated there is a passenger station along that lower track (between [9W] and [9E]), I reasoned it's very plausible that faster MEDIUM speed switches [4][8] would be installed around it to help keep the passenger trains moving. But eliminating these and making all the switches SLOW speed would practically eliminate the need for any 3-headed signals. (Signal [3E] could be kept as-is if it would be desired to still have it show Approach Slow.) I have no idea how things really were at this location at the time you're wanting to model it, but, creative license again.
If you are using JMRI you can ignore any automatic route signalling that the SE8C does and just drive the heads directly from heads in head controlled masts in JMRI. Any fixed red markers can be powered locally without using outputs on the SE8C. When looking for LEDs for the signals you need to look for ones labelled as 'True Green'. You can buy 2mm LEDs in this colour which could be fitted to Oregon Rail Supply #107 heads if you are making your own masts. If you do go with searchlight heads the Signalist SH3a GRS heads have true green. I am not sure that the mast and turnout numbering in the diagrams will work, but I might be missing something. If I was building a CTC panel for this diagram I would have five odd numbered switches for the turnouts in the top row, and four even numbered switches for the signals in the bottom row. Switch 1 would control half of slip 2 Switch 3 would control turnout 4 and the other half of slip 2 Switch 5 would control turnout 6 Switch 7 would control turnout 8 and half of slip 10 Switch 9 would control the other half of slip 10 Four signal switches would be below the turnout switches in positions 2, 4, 8 and 10 such that Mast 1E would become 2E Mast 3E would become 2EA Mast 11W would become 2W Mast 5E would become 4E Mast 9W would become 4W Mast 9E would become 8E Mast 3W would become 8W Mast 1W would become 8WA Mast 7E would become 10E Mast 7W would become 10W Mast 5W would become 10WA Suzie x
That makes absolute sense! Thank you for clarifying. I would actually go ahead and make 7E three heads too - as I am looking for items to simulate marker lights, I think I am finding some cheaper ways to do it, and as Suzie said, marker lights shouldn't be much of a problem at all. Thank you so much for another diagram, but you cannot get me drunk on good bourbon and then offer me milk again now, can you? I think this is pretty close to what I came up with before I managed to get a complete understanding of what I am getting into, however, I will keep it aside for now and will come back to it if I cannot figure out a suitable way to simulate slow+medium combination.
Thanks Suzie! I happened to stumble upon the Oregon Rail Supply heads as well, my only concern is that it seems like they are made of plastic/styrene. If I have to wire and solder all three lights of a signal, then I am not sure I would like to do it on plastic heads. Those are, however, my first and only choice for markers till now, because the markers won't require soldering and it will be easy to work on plastic to cut those hoods off and seal the other two heads. Signalist products are very interesting too - taking time to look at them. Too bad that they don't have a New York Central ready-made option like other railroads. I will be using JMRI, and it is great to know that I can override SE8C's inbuilt logic and drive the heads independently - at this point that's the most important thing I needed confirmation on - so, THANK YOU! Honestly, I need to study more and gather more knowledge before I can make complete sense of the rearrangement of the switches that you mentioned - so, I'm keeping it for the time when I dive into electronics, JMRI, CATS etc. to build the CTC panel - I am a novice in that area as well. For now, I am focusing on getting my understanding on signalling right, and figuring out what components to buy so that I can make the appropriate signals. Don't worry, I will drive you mad when electronics and JMRI phase starts, just like I am driving Joseph mad now to learn about the signal aspects and indications!
Thanks Rick. I am looking at suitable ways to do that, and I just discovered Oregon Rail's plastic signal heads that will work perfectly for markers. Also found some photos of how the unused colors were blanked out in these type of signals, so that's all set.
My diagram labeling was just more for reference than an authoritative suggestion on practical labeling and addressing with regard to computer or CTC control, etc. I labeled the switches with even numbers and the signals with odd numbers (plus direction of travel), which is (an erstwhile?) prototype engineering practice. Similarly, their presentation on the diagram (as self-supporting signals, on the right-side of the track) is just a standard of the diagram itself, and doesn't intend to imply that is how they must be mounted or positioned. Only the implementation of dwarf or high signal, position relative to switches, and the heads and colors are meant to be significant on the diagram. However, it is my understanding that most double-slips operate all four switches at once, much like a power crossover operates its two switches at once. Route-wise, especially in this simple example, each dbl-slip needs only two states: tangent or diverging, which simultaneously affects all four approaches to it. You can add 11E to that list too, if you want. If it had three heads, its middle one would be a red marker light and its lowest would be R/Y/G—it would show normal speed and SLOW speed aspects. I always knew that if I got back into model railroading, and got serious, I would end up having to build my own signals from scratch. It's been over 20 years since I have really had anything to do with model railroading and a lot has changed. There is a lot involved in setting-up model railroad signaling that I cannot advise on because I'm just out of the loop. But there are also some signals available now that I could be happy to use. However, as a "signals person" there still isn't the variety that I would want available to address every situation, such as in these junctions. I would insist on only the required lamps and colors being present, for example. Well, I can try. I think the initial Slow/Medium diagram is much more interesting (to watch and operate), for sure. But my diagrams are just suggestions of options, and it's very obvious there are several ways to accomplish the same thing in the end. I'm trying to show you what you can do versus what you should do. I'm happy to advise with whatever direction you choose to go in. Any authoritative prototype information you can get a hold of should have much more weight than what I suggest. Speaking of prototype information... I knew my diagrams looked a bit funny, but I finally realized that my diagrams shown here are all wrong. The green and yellow colors should be swapped in position on all of the high signals shown. This is how a NYC Style-G signal head should appear: Oops. I'll probably get around to correcting my diagrams here soon. I was already stark, raving mad, I assure you: I love train signals more than the trains.
Looking at the Signalist website, it is the NORAC generic configuration that has all the correct aspects which is shown in the manual, but only for searchlight heads (signalist SH3 type). The C&O configuration is also an Eastern type and it looks like it will work for 2-head NYC masts, but the restricting aspect is wrong for 3-head masts (red/yellow/dark instead of red/red/yellow). 2-head configurations can be used when there is a fixed red marker light in a 3-head mast of course - all the masts in the #27 diagram can be done with a C&O double head mast configuration or generic single head. JMRI will work with this directly using the the DCC signal mast driver without any need to set up individual heads separately (as you do with the SE8C). My model double slips from Peco work like a pair of overlaid 'Y' turnouts, so have two actuators and only one route is possible through the slip at any one time. This makes using the slips in crossovers nice and straightforward. I am not familiar with model slips that just have a single actuator but I guess they must exist. I am probably slipping in to applying British practice here with flank protection to avoid the need to fit derails to protect the main line through the slips from unauthorised movements from the quay, logging line, and engine #1 (branch and engine #2 would still need derails). I am really looking forward to seeing pictures of this finished!
The NORAC configuration should be the closest, yes; most of the C&O aspects are wrong and it is not at all suitable. The Chesapeake & Ohio had some very strange and very unique ideas about speed signaling. There are only a few differences between the NORAC and the traditional NYC signaling systems. The big one is that SLOW speed high-signal aspects require a third head. A second is that NORAC Advance Approach is Flashing Yellow [over Red [over Red]], and that instead is definitely Yellow over Yellow [over Red] on the NYC. Assuming one can distinctively program each signal (or signal head) for any occasion, it shouldn't be a big problem to program in overrides. It seems we're kind-of both right. My depiction of the double-slips on my diagrams is wrong. But it could be appropriate in some other countries (even England); but not in the US. I shall revise my diagrams accordingly. Somehow. You and I both!!
C&O (and later Chessie and CSX) had a rule that said all lower heads that are dark are to be considered as displaying red. There was/is also an exception for the Slow Approach (red/yellow/red) and Restricting (red/yellow) in that you do not consider any lower dark head as red with red/yellow displayed.
Well, I finally managed to get my order placed today. I did go for the Oregon Rail Supply after all because it was getting too costly for me to go for Tomar or NJ International for the whole set-up, especially when I have to have semaphores! Still I had to keep 3W and 5W's options open for the future - I will evaluate if I can use the Digitrax SDMK's built in LED's for the dwarves (I know that they say they are suitable for N scale, but I am assuming that for a HO dwarf, they might just work), else will figure something out later.. Well, there will be a lull for a few months, and I will get back with more questions when I finally start with the project.
I am actually going European too, Suzie - because mine are Tillig double slip switches, and follows the same operating principle as the Peco one. I know that it sounds outrageous for an American prototype (and to me it actually is) and in most probability will be a wrong representation by all means, but the story there is that when I started planning for my next layout, even getting space for a 2 X 10 was proving to be difficult, so I had to get items that fit into real tight spaces, and Tillig Double slip is the undisputed winner there! However, things changed after that, and I now have a relatively bigger space, but it is really difficult to throw away costly expenses and incur more on top of it. The good news is that the appearance wise it won't be much of a problem - I am modeling winter, so the only thing that you will get to see are the rails, rest everything is going to be covered in snow! I will be using DCC concept's IP Digital that provides very nice interlocking options, and I will definitely try to take full advantage of that, however, I have not planned for the derail protection and I am not even sure that for such a small station if the prototype ever had them! However, I might end up saving a few switch stands after installing them on the main switches, and can use them as static display of derail protection (NYC guide says that that's all they had for derail protection. Well, you guys will have to wait! At this stage I am in research and purchase mode - I will be travelling to the US in November for a business trip and will pick up these items. On returning I will be moving to the new apartment in February/March (plan is to get the bench work of the layout done as a part of the interior, but not sure if that will happen). Then cooling off (finish other miniature projects/dioramas), and then jump on to this one - so nothing before the second half of 2018. But I am planning to make a practice layout to test all critical hardware and electronics that will have the exact same configuration of this diagram but in just 6X1 space. If I manage to make the signals by then, I will include it in that trial for sure. Just wanted to thank you all for the wonderful suggestions, recommendations and a very lively discussion - it was most entertaining and educational! Happy Railroading! Kaustav
No problem there! Waiting is one thing I'm good at, at least. Am a bit surprised to hear you're making a snow diorama... that will be different!
Well, the whole thing started a couple of years back - I always liked logging so when I decided to make a new layout, I thought of trying that. While looking for a prototype, I tried finding something that's not been captured before and I stumbled upon the standard gauge logging operation in the Adirondacks (up to this point, I was mostly looking at narrow gauge logging with a standard gauge interchange to make a dual gauge layout). Then I purchased Bill Gove's Logging Railroads of the Adirondacks to learn more, and that's when things changed. That book is truly fabulous - it has detailed accounts of all the Logging Railroads in that region in the first half of the 20th century, and it shows how New York Central created their arterial line that served all those small logging lines - that's when New York Central came into picture. Second, I noticed the importance of the continued logging operation in the winter - till the railroads came, logging in the Adirondacks used to be restricted as a summer activity at the edges of the rivers and lakes. There are many beautiful photos in that book on how logging used to happen in winter, and that's when I decided to pick that up - I have hardly seen a winter layout, but I definitely haven't seen a winter layout depicting logging operation! Unfortunately, though I really wanted to make the track plan absolutely prototypical and just transfer real track plans to a layout (there are plenty, readily available plans in that book), I just do not have enough space to model a logging line, a sawmill, and an interchange. You might ask why I didn't pick up just one - either the interchange or the logging line with a sawmill, and I actually don't have a clear answer. In my mind the 'whole picture' even if it doesn't take into account the very minute details of all the different aspects, makes it more exciting than focusing on just one of them. So I took the proto--freelance route on the track plan. The focus is not just the logging line and logging scenery anymore, the interchange with the New York Central line depicts how that contributed heavily on the 50+ years of logging operation in that region. If I manage to get a even bigger space someday, I will be expanding the logging line to make a proper logging railroad. That will be easy and cheap - I just need the space! Will post the plan once ready.
Sounds nice to me. I've seen the odd photo of layouts done in winter but it isn't something one hears of very often. It's a novel approach. And snow weathering sounds fun, to be honest... even if I'm not a big fan of snow! Since you decided to go with semaphores for a few signals, what are your plans with those?
