I am building with metal 2x4 studs for lateral support-with a plywood and foam sheet sandwich, i can go 12'x2'or3' feet deep with no sagging, so am VERY happy with those materials. The problem is legs-wood is heavy, expensive and warps. The metal 2x4s don't make very good legs because they flex/twist very easily when moved. I'm thinking about PVC pipe-inexpensive, strong laterially, and available in many diameters. My layout is two seperate levels around the wall type, and i'd like the legs supporting the upper level to be as thin and un-obstrusive as possible-any thoughts/ experiences with PVC or other non-traditional material? Built many layouts over the years, but want to go "high tech" this time. Thanks, Curt
Look into aluminum tubing. There are all sorts of fittings to go with it. For bracing, I suggest you do NOT drill holes through the legs. Instead, use the slip-over type fitting they have for portable canopies, sun shades, and booths you see at outdoor auctions, county fairs, trade days, auto shows, etc. That tubing is very light weight, stiff, and easy to work with. Use a tubing cutter to cut it, it is thin walled. You have a choice at the floor, of leveling screw fittings, casters, ball-slides, ball-glides (for carpet), and various caps. Greatest variety is for 3/4 and 1.0 inch diameters. I used the folding legs from a card table once, but it was lower than I would have liked. For over head, between upper and lower levels, you can use a smaller diameter, paint it like a tree, and it will dissappear in the background (like we did in the war). [ 27 June 2001: Message edited by: watash ]
Have you ever seen the stamped steel 'L' shaped shelf brackets? I know a local guy who used them for a double deck layout. His deepest benchwork is 30". The package claims the pair of brackets will hold up to 100 pounds! He's using lightweight materials so his sections couldn't be over 30 pounds for an 8' length. The brackets he used were 18" on each leg and attached with screws to a wall stud. 2slim
Have you considered clear Perspex (Lexan?) rod or tube if you need to support parts of the upper structure near to the front - it's pretty strong in compression and being clear will be fairly unobtrusive
Great ideas-keep-em coming. Clear plastic invisible legs between levels sounds promising, or making some legs camoflaged as Sequois could be fun too. Just remembered I once hung thin cables from the ceiling to hold the second level up that way-might look into that again. I'm waiting to get new floor covering laid next week, so have plenty of time for more ideas. Love having so many brains to tap into. Thanks, Curt
I was going to suggest the cabels from the ceiling for the upper deck, but see you have already thought of that one, good idea. I think the PVC pipe for the legs is a great idea also. Would the metal studs work if you screwed two of them together to form a 4 sided girder?....Mike
I have a double decker, and it is up to a little over three feet in width in places, but then narrows to around 15 inches. First, if money is no object (Ha.....) then you can have custom L brackets made for you, by people who make iron fences, winding stair cases etc. I had looked into that myself, but in the end I made my own L brackets from rather thick (over 1 inche wide, over 2.5 cm wide) MDF. There is a bit is sag in the three foot area. For the bottom level, I am using those pieces of turned wood, used on stair cases that hold the stair case up. But I am turning the piece upside down. The round end which your hand can go on going down the stairs, will become the foot of the leg. This will give the layout a more finished look, and disguise the fact that a carpenter "challenged" individual built the benchwork.....lol. In the three foot wide area, I will have one leg underneath the bottom deck, and one leg between the two decks. I plan to use dowling for this leg. I will have the dowling painted white, with most of it hidden inside a rather large granary, with only a couple of inches going up to the top. Since it is white, it will blend in with the building. I figure it will take a couple of minutes for anyone to actually notice it. You might try doweling and use a few as possible and try to figure out how to disguise them. Once could be in a building, one could be in a large hill or mountain going up, with trees around it. I suspect you will discover that you don't need many legs to support the upper level. [ 03 July 2001: Message edited by: rsn48 ]
Okay, now you really have me thinking-i plan on grain elevators and factories galore-it occurs to me that the legs don't have to be in the very front-a couple inches back would make them easier to disguise in grain elevators, factory chimminies, cooling towers, etc. In the Southwest there are plenty of rock spires and such to use in the scenic areas. I have been talking to a friend about Cellotex-an insulation foam type board that is light and can be hotglued-it is extensively used as framework by a guy that builds model RRs professionally-that would be good for a lighter upper deck, and like you said Rick, would then require less support. Going to buy a sheet of Cellotex and try it out-all mountains could be made of expanding foam to save even more weight. Continued thanks, Curt
Assuming you have lighting installed under the upper deck (highly recommended) then you will need some sort of valance to block the view of the light fixtures. Depending on the height of the upper deck and the depth of the scene beneath it is can be very easy to hide supports that are set back from the front edge. In larger scales (like O) I have seen tree trunks used effectively to hold up light fixtures. Of course these would be really big trees in N but to stick a post out the roof of a tall building would probably go unnoticed.
If you are going to have some factories, you could make some tall smoke stacks. To continue up to the upper deck, glue a smaller diameter dowel inside the smoke stack top, paint the stack, then paint the little dowl white. Pull out and loosen some cotton batting (from a cloth store used in quilts) and lightly spray splotches of grey and whisps of black into the cotton, then gently glue it around the little dowel to look like smoke rising out of the chimney of the smoke stack. Fasten the upper deck to the little dowel. It will takes lots of compression. If you make each "between" support look different, they will not be noticable. Go to a museum and look at some of the dioramas there! [ 03 July 2001: Message edited by: watash ]
I wouldn't worry about weight too much, in fact, heavier might work for you in your benchwork. I have a double decker, with a "nolix" area. The nolix is a helix in function (raise the elevation of trains to second level) but not in design (it doesn't look like a big blob). Since my nolix is two large mountains giving my a major mountain area on my layout, I have kept the other areas of the layout relatively flat. About 2/3 of the layout is flat, upper and lower. In these flat areas I have used MDF, almost 1 inch (2.5 centimetres) thick. If you have worked with MDF you know how heavy it is. I found the weight to give stability to the layout. By that I mean if you accidentality hit it, there is very little movement. I am wondering how much there would be with lighter material. There is nothing sacred about MDF, I happen to use it because I got a deal on it. If there had been no deal, I probably would have used something else. My small layout is made of foam so I'm not an anti-foam guy. I have found with our double decker at least, that with the heights we have (37 and 57 inches, 94 centimetres and 1 metre and 45 centimetres) that is inconvenient for anyone to lean on it. I would typify the benchwork I have built as not excellent but "good enough." I spent months worrying about how "unmoveable" my benchwork would be. Then I remembered our 2 by 8 1/2 foot layout (60 by 255 c) was sitting on top of work horses, unattached to anything. With one finger you could push it off if you wanted. Of course, I am not advocating loose benchwork, but for two years we used this set up with no problems what so ever. In N scale in particular, I think much benchwork is "over built."
!!!!!MDF DUST IS CARCINOGENIC!!!!! Take GREAT care when cutting and drilling MDF. If possible do it out in the open air and WEAR A MASK! If you have a dust extractor system with your cutting tool USE IT! It's great stuff, and does a good job for layouts, but must be treated with care. There are few enough of us out there - we can't afford to loose any more! Jack
Thanks for the warning. I do all my cutting outside on the Sun Deck. As far as I can figure out, it seems like half the planet is carcinogenic to us.
