It seems the information about HOn3 locos is scattered pretty much. In particular, there is no thread that I could find here specifically dealing with non-brass engines that have been produced or announced over the last few years. Thus, I'm opening a platform here. There are basically two manufacturers that have stimulated the HOn3 scale tremendously with their steam engines. (I'm not going into the freight cars and passenger cars here. That could be done in a separate thread as that info is pretty much scattered as well. So let's not mix things here.) For one, there is Mountain Model Imports, MMI for short, a division of PSC or Precision Scale Co. who started a line of On3 and HOn3 scale models that are considerably more affordable than their brass line. The MMI products are a composite of die-cast and brass. No plastic, unlike what had been mentioned elsewhere in a thread that has been dormant for over two years: HOn3???? - TrainBoard.com. The second manufacturer is Blackstone, a division of SoundTraxx, the producers of the well established Tsunami sound system. Their declared philosophy is to produce the engines around the sound system. Though their Tsunami sound is not restricted to the Blackstone models. In fact SoundTraxx was first. Anyway, their engines are to a large part plastic models, and very fine ones at that. I'll go into more details in future posts, particularly trying to communicate some of my (limited) experiences. And I encourage others to do so as well. Both manufacturers started with the K-27 model that appeared within about a month of each other in the second half of 2007. Blackstone has since announced a C-19 scheduled for the end of 2010 Blackstone Models, whereas MMI has a much longer list. Their K-28 and K-36 are still scheduled for the end of this year. Though, judging from the experience with their On3 counterparts, it is more likely that those models will not be ready till some time next year. Further announced models in HOn3 are K-37, C-17, C-18, C-19, and C-21 to just mention the DRGW ones at this point. However no dates have been given for these. Domain Names, Web Hosting and Online Marketing Services | Network Solutions
Both MMI and Blackstone are new. The previous HOn3 boom from 1980-1990 was fueled by older non-brass offerings. From around 1980 until 2004, MDC Roundhouse offered the entry level HOn3 locomotives: an IF 2-8-0, an OF 2-8-0, and shays. They were classic MDC locomotives, most people had a hard time getting them to run well and they needed additional details. Still, they were far more budget friendly than MMI an Blackstone locomotives are today. My IF 2-8-0 was $50. MDC's OF 2-8-0 was a decent representative of Crystal River #103 (later D&RG 432/D&RGW 375)...as well as some Latin American and White Pass power. The IF 2-8-0 was a decent starting point for modern 2-8-0s...the F&CC locomotives (became D&RGW C-18, Uintah, Eureka-Nevada, & Montana Southern), Pacific Coast, Tweetsie, various others. The biggest problem with the IF was that the boiler was too large, and the boiler sat too high for both versions. Horizon has yet to re-release the HOn3 versions of these locomotives; the 2-8-0 was just their "Old Time" 2-8-0 with a narrower frame, HOn3 running gear, and a different tender. With a little skill, they can be turned into nicely detailed, smooth running locomotives. The second option for power since the 1980s has been Grandt Line's 23t and 25 ton diesels. Unfortunately, in the 1990s, they switched from Micro motors to conventional motors due to the price of coreless motors (practically buy 1, get two diesels for free!). Michael
I think that MMI's announcements of a laundry list of engines is just an attempt to cover the market so that if anyone else produces a K37 or one of the C's they MMI can say they were copied. Most of their list will be just "vapour-ware" and will never see reality. Just my opinion on that subject. Re: the Model Die Cast engines. Horizion has stated that they have no intention of ever producing the narrow gauge engines. This is really to bad, because as previously noted, they were a good starting point for entry into HOn3. The engine I built 15 years ago stil runs great with very little maintainance. Also, there used to be a kit to lower the boiler (forgot who made it). Sure wish someone could revive the MDC/lowering kit combo. Malcolm Furlow did wonders with his 2 little engines in his Model Railroad series which has now been reprinted. Thanks for following along on my answer. ---Steve from the other Phoenix
What I have learned: brass is for collectors, it's expensive. But the other point, most brass engines have only poor pickup, engine one site, tender the other site. With such an engine you can't run to the next booster district with DCC without problems. You have to do a lot of work, light, sound. The Blackstone engines are ready to run. That's a big point. Wolfgang
Well, it looks like an awfully long list, I agree. On the other hand, they have delivered four K models in On3. Albeit with some considerable delays, but that seems to be rather normal, I'm afraid. Anyway, I see good chances that the list is more than just "vapour-ware". Whether the present economy helps the market is doubtful. Thus, the chances for non-realisations must be higher now than at the time the list was issued. As for those early attempts by MDC in particular to make HOn3 more popular, I could never get excited about those models. I don't recall whether they came only as kits or not, but they always had a somewhat crude look for me. Sure, they were quite a bit cheaper than the present offerings. Just like the early Athearn and Atlas/Roco HO models were simpler and cheaper. On top of my reservations, however, came the fact that no K models were offered. I am particularly fond of those NG outside frame Mikados. That is why I immediately jumped at those new models. I recall Caboose Hobbies inquiring among their customers long (about two years or so) before any models were announced whether there was a large enough potential market for such NG models. I presume they did that after PSC had hinted to them that they could do something like that using their already existing large fundus of detail parts in both On3 and HOn3. And because those detail parts already exist, quite a bit of work has already been done for all those announced models. In fact, one shortcoming of the MMI models (both in HOn3 and On3) is that the models are made with what is available for detailing. Thus, their On3 K-37 has a doghouse of the type of the other Ks (it should not stand on boards), and their HOn3 K-27 versions all come without a backup light. Nevertheless, their models, just like the ones from Blackstone look pretty much like the real thing for the average enthusiast. And you don't have to start with a kit. Kits are no way to enter into a larger market segment.
MMI "releases" have been the subject of conversation on another HOn3 list as well. Since I don't follow what they have done and are going to do, I really can't comment. Having run a Blackstone engine however, I can honestly say anyone else making R-T-R engines needs to match that bar. But is the market gains more steam, Athearn might be temped to release the old kits as R-T-R. As for the kits, I've gotten 3 for my roster. They need to be narrowed to 30", lowered and have the NWSL gear kits installed. Art
Yes, the MDC engines were kits only. The detail was lacking, but for $50, you could detail it for whatever you wanted for half the price of the new locomotives. For those with more $$$ than time, brass locomotives were R-T-R and beautifully detailed. HOn3 brass frequently runs $150-$250. Due to the low price, I've often times wished I was in HOn3 instead. MMI is operated like a brass importer. They announce a bunch of projects. Once they have sufficient pre-orders, they start construction. There are currently a bunch of very upset On3 customers...as word is that they've canceled the 4-4-0s...yet their official announcement claims delivery next month. I was going to get one, but since it'll be a brass offering a year or two from now, its been priced out of my means. As for the Ks and Cs, many of the parts are interchangeable, so they don't need anywhere close to as large of runs as they would for the 4-4-0 or a Mason Bogie. I would be surprised if they didn't offer most of the announced modern locomotives. I'd be happy with any poorly detailed, poor running DSP&P locomotive... Michael
I had not seen any of those when I was interested. Here, prices were closer to 1000$ plus/minus 200. That is new and factory painted. So my first HOn3 model, a used brass K-37 was just "relatively" affordable at around 700$. And its running characteristics are rather poor. But a beautiful slightly weathered display piece that I still adore. Getting back to those modern non-brass offerings: I own one MMI K-27. It is a very smooth runner. Because Blackstone offered a wide variety within their K-27 production, I have now a total of 5 of them (all non-sound version). However, only three out of these five have run without any problems from the beginning. They are all making quite a bit more noise than the MMI one. Of the ones with running problems, I have been able to fix one so far. The other one actually ran smoothly for about ten or fifteen minutes before it quit. I'll have to get into the cause. So far, I concentrated on the other one. That one, a 464 with the snow plow, produced some smoke from underneath the cab soon after I started running it. Meanwhile, I know that came from overlubrication of the early production models. The smoke is no problem any more now. However, that model has a piston rod that is too short on the fireman's/left side. So all of a sudden, the whole mechanism jammed. I had to remove the main rod at the third driver to get things back into working order. But I soon realized that the jam could happen anytime again. I solved the issue - for the time being at least - by glueing a small piece of suitable plastic tubing at the opening of that cylinder. That opening had already shown signs of its "mistreatment" that must have happened even when the rod managed to get into its proper setting without jamming the mechanism. After having painted the added "sleeve" the engine is now running very well. I just don't know how durable my fix will be. But one needs to check rather carefully to discover that added piece. So I'm satisfied for the moment with that engine.
I had a similar bind with one of my HO NKP hudsons. They were known for shearing the valve gear off of their sides, but they are the only NKP hudsons ever offered. My solution was to file the frame a little and move the cylinder block back around 0.020"...no more problems. By replacing the motors, they are now silent and smooth. There are two types of brass locomotives: old (typically) Japanese locomotives and new Korean locomotives. In general, the new stuff is for collectors, not modelers. Runs are frequently under 100 pieces and sell for $1000-$2000 and up. Old models from Japan were more likely to be 1000 pieces and run for $150-$300 today. MMI's locomotives are simply an attempt at offering modern locomotives to the market for older brass (since many collectors accept only brass). Given the choice between a $200 locomotive which may need re-powered and painted or a new locomotive for $300 that is ready for service, many will chose the later. I prefer the savings and dropping in the additional $15-$50 it takes to get them up to snuff. Currently, the cheapest HOn3 brass at Caboose Hobbies is a pair of spartan series locomotives, 2-6-0 & 4-4-0, for $175 (they did have one for $120 a month ago). In the $200-$300 category, there are D&RGW Cs, Ks, and T-12s. I've seen every one of them go for $100 less than their prices on ebay over the last couple years. The greatest need for diecast steam isn't HOn3, but On3. By comparison to HOn3, the cheapest On3 brass on their website Spartan series mogul for $500. There are only five in the $0-$994 category. It cost around 50% more to create a diecast On3 locomotive over an HOn3 locomotive, but the price tags for brass are typically around 4x higher for On3. Still, I'm happy for every new diecast locomotive that comes out...HOn3, Sn3, On30, On3, and Fn3 for they'll drive down the price of the older brass power. Diecast is the new brass for modelers. Unless, of course, you model something other than what they're offering! Michael EDIT: here are some on ebay currently, just to give an idea. The prices on ebay fluctuate by large margins: Custom Brass C-21 Westside K-37, missing a couple parts Sunset K-27, painted Key C-16 Balboa C-19 United K-28, painted, reserve is probably too high...
I'd now definitely choose the 300$ model in your example. Though when I started in HO, I also did it the way you do. But here in Switzerland it is a big problem getting those detail parts when you want/need them. So I ended up with a pretty sizeable collection of spare details and decals just to make sure I did not have to wait half a year or so till I could continue on my project. As for the available models you listed, they'd mostly not fit my bill if I planned to get any at this point, because they are unpainted, have the motor in the cab, or have rods that are way too crude. Which gets me back to praising the MMI and Blackstone offerings. One thing I would like to add to those models: MMI's K-27 comes with an empty tender. Blackstone has a "coal" insert, but it is just a bit unsatisfactory. The insert virtually fills the coal compartment to the brim. Thus, there is limited or no space to improve the appearance with real coal. And if you have five engines that all have exactly the same shape of the coal heap, it looks a bit odd in my opinion.
:tb-biggrin: Understandable! From what I've gathered, building stuff is less common your continent than on mine...and the little island to the north of France is far more into building stuff than our two continents combined! Nothing bogs a project down like waiting 6-months for parts! For most, Blackstone & MMI are simply this: slightly more $$$ rather than extra time spent away from running/building the layout. Just as RTR freight cars have invaded HOn3 :tb-shocked: I always love coal loads. Far too many manufacturers love to pile it on. Why? I personally prefer either an empty tender (common on brass locomotives), a plain shelf midway up, or a flat load a little below the top. My MDC HO 2-8-0 is the worst...but its load will be replaced when I give it a new tender (and cab, boiler, etc). Michael
Yes, building your own models has never caught on here. And without those fine RTR cars, mostly from Blackstone, my HOn3 trains would probably pull only what I bought used via e-Bay. I do have a few kits in various states of completion, but none finished so far. I know what you mean regarding coal loads. I have actually rather overfilled mine a bit on some of my On3 MMI models. At least, I now prefer the looks of those tenders that have less coal in them. However, I don't care for completely empty tenders. As for the Blackstone HOn3 tenders, I removed the "coal" insert on one to grind it down before I put it back in and added the real coal. However, except for allowing a bit larger pieces around the rim, the effect has not been all that convincing. I still have too high a heap in the rear. And it was not that easy to get the insert off. It is screwed in, and in my case one screw that allowed to open the tender did not come off without destroying the screw (which I did in the end).
PSC/MMI are notoriously very slow in updating their website. They should add a BLOG page like Blackstone and Eureka (Australia) have done. Apparently, it is quite a bit easier to post updates in a blog. I wondered about that 4-4-0 when the website info was changed and said there were decals provided instead of a printed decoration. I still consider decals to be less durable. And one would also have had to protect them with a spray. I would not want to have to do this on such a nevertheless expensive model.
I actually loved the changes in offerings for a few reasons: #1) they became less D&RG specific...with the two most common styles for the locomotives (red and green). It was also a great idea to allow the modeler to choose the lettering style, as it did vary a fair bit...especially as the lettering changed. It also allowed for a greater variety of lettering-numbering conventions. #2) I dislike locomotives having numbers/names installed by the manufacturer. The same holds for rolling stock. I have two B-man 2-6-0s which are both lettered for C&S #22. If I ever get around to it, one will become #21 (a near sister). The production change was reported on the On3 yahoo group in the last month...and observed on Caboose Hobbies' website. The big issue is this: everything for the 4-4-0s was specific for them, while construction runs of the modern 'Grande power had lots of common detail parts...so therefore a much larger run was required. I'm glad that AMS had the sense to offer their C-16 in gorgeous 19th century colors. Michael
There is an interesting comment to this here: http://www.i-sng.com/On3/on3.html Just scroll down to the black-framed window.
Yep, it is a murky mess...and PSC has avoided making any attempt to clarify. Someone else has reported that Mark requires 100 more pre-orders for the 4-4-0s to get done. Both the reports on the cancellation and the additionally pre-orders came from reliable sources. At the very core of the issue is that PSC is not communicating what has happened. I recently emailed the Caboose for clarification...getting back that the die-cast were canceled...while SWNG says that they have no insight into the matter. Another dealer reports that they the diecast are still on. I contacted PSC and haven't received a reply. Why oh why can't PSC get its act together on this? What is so difficult about communication? Michael
Yes, that's the main point. All this speculation is crazy, and it makes people withdraw reservations instead of keeping them on. The same sad story is now going on with the HOn3 K-36. Some reports say they are not being produced. Yet, the PSC/MMI website that has just been worked on, announcing some PSC electrics, still leaves all the MMI info unchanged. Thus still promising the On3 4-4-0s for this November, etcetera. On the positive side, however, the Yahoo HOn3 group has a post saying Blackstone is researching K-36. Thus, that may be the next model after the C-19. But if it's true, this still means a wait of somewhere between three and five years, I guess. Thus MMI would have good chances selling lots of their K-36 before any competition is around.
different news on that 4-4-0 Presently, there is news here Yahoo! Groups that this project is still alive, even possibly as a MMI version. The deadline for a decision now apparently being March 2010. But the communication is once again via a third party. Maybe someone ought to call Mark on the MMI K's!
