...was a famous poet from Indiana. It was also the name of a NYC passenger train that ran through that state. While I model the NYC, I am not very familiar with the Big Four lines. Being curious, I decided to look up information about this train. I am glad I did. It would be an excellent (and colorful) train to model. It is not very long, and offers run-through traffic and some interesting switching operations. Here is some of what I learned. Train #3: Cincinnati – Indianapolis – Lafayette – Kankakee – Woodlawn – Chicago Train #4: Chicago – Woodlawn – Kankakee – Lafayette – Indianapolis - Cincinnati Inaugural run: April 28, 1941 All equipment was painted red and gray Locomotive: Pacifics K-5b #4915 and #4917, from the Mercury Baggage car #8551 (heavy weight) Coaches #2560 and #2561 (light weight) Diner #576 (heavy weight) Coaches #2562 and #2563 (light weight) Observation #52 (heavy weight) During the war, the four Budd coaches were replaced by six Pullman-Standard coaches, numbers 2601-2606, painted red and gray. In January 1947 baggage car #8551 was replaced by baggage car #9001, and the two streamlined engines were replaced J-1e by Hudsons #5333 and #5401, both with centipede tenders. In April 1947, ACF combination coach #298 was substituted for the #9001; and new Pullman-Standard coaches #3001-3008 replaced the #2601-2606, which then went to the Mercury trains, painted gray and silver. Finally, in January 1948, Budd tavern/lounge #41 was added, and in April 1948 two Budd grill-diners (#452 and #453) replaced the #41 and heavy weight diner #576. A new Budd tavern/observation #50 replaced the heavy weight observation #52. In 1953, No. 3 included a Pullman-operated 14-roomette/4-double bedroom sleeper from Southern Railway train No. 28 originating in Asheville, North Carolina. Connecting service was made at Cincinnati. In 1955, No. 3’s schedule was lengthened to include stops at Greensburg and Shelbyville, Indiana. The dining services were listed as a “thrift grill” but in 1956, the “thrift” disappeared and “dining service” resumed. Also the Southern Railway substituted a 10-6 for the 14-4 and in October 1956, the Riley added another 10-6, this one from Newport News, Virginia, from C&O train No. 1-41 at Cincinnati. This necessitated only a minor lengthening of the train’s schedule. Westbound train No. 3 left Cincinnati at 8:15 AM and arrived at Chicago Central Station at 1:15 PM. Eastbound, No. 4 left Chicago at 4:20 PM and arrived Cincinnati Union Terminal at 11:00 PM. You can read more about this train in the book New York Central’s Great Steel Fleet 1948-1967, by Geoffrey H. Doughty. This has been an interesting trip into the past for me! I will tell you about some surprises, but first let me try to answer your questions. The train ran with the red and gray cars until April 1947 when the coaches were replaced by the corrugated stainless steel Pullman-Standard coaches. The transition to an all stainless steel silver train was completed by April 1948. The previously-mentioned book has a photo of the train during the war. Unfortunately it is black & white and doesn’t show much detail. The train is being pulled by one of the streamlined Pacifics. The tender, baggage car, and coaches clearly have a broad stripe through the center. It appears from the shades of gray that the base color is gray and the stripe is red, perhaps with some narrow white or silver striping between the colors. These cars are the smooth side Pullman-Standard coaches with the heavyweight baggage, diner, and observation. One mystery is the original train that had four Budd coaches. The book says clearly that ALL equipment was painted red and gray. The pictures of these cars as delivered are unpainted corrugated stainless steel, and their trucks are painted silver. The coaches 2560 & 2561 were delivered in May 1938. Coaches 2562 & 2563 were delivered in March 1939. Maybe the window panel was painted red when the cars were assigned to the Riley in April 1941. [I have also seen this color described as orange and even yellow]. In any case, they were probably replaced soon after by the Pullman-Standard coaches which were delivered between August and October 1941. Another tidbit is that the Riley remained powered by steam into the early 1950s. Photos show it so at least into 1952. Doubleheaded steam was often used. One photo shows the train pulled by a J1e Hudson with a de-streamlined K5b Pacific in the lead. Still another surprise – as I searched through another of Doughty’s books (New York Central’s Lightweight Passenger Cars, Trains and Travel) – looking for photos of the cars. I noticed a photo of an orange and brown Illinois Central E8 pulling the Riley in April 1956. The E8 was leased by the NYC in an effort to eliminate steam power from the train without degrading its own motive power requirements. Illinois Central E8s and run-through sleepers from other roads can provide excuses to run some real mixtures.
Fascinating. I had heard of the James Whitcomb Riley while growing up near the Hudson and Harlem Divisions, but I have no idea in what context. I'm sure I never rode it since my folks had no reason to visit Ohio or Indiana, except to pass through on the Water Level Route way up north of Cincy.
You have certainly done your homework concerning the Riley. Like Hank, I spent all my youth in the confines of New York State, so never saw nor rode the Riley. It sure sounds as if it will be fun to model it. :tb-biggrin:
1970 PRR power on the Riley - (Big Four Fans, take a deep breath! - rph) Just west of West Lafayette, IN on the NYC/N&W joint track heading toward Chicago. Purdue Airport is on the right. Probably 1970. Photo by Chuck Tuttle.
AAAARGH! PC, the scourge of the Great Steel Fleet and the Standard Railroad of the World!!!!! Oh well, I suppose I'll get over it sooner or later.....:tb-wacky:
I will be starting a few threads that have COLOR on the NYC as the theme. This was the first one. This began with some research for my modeling. Color matching can be very important in railroad modeling. For those that think NYC freight was all black and freight car red, and that passenger consists were either Pullman green or two-tone grey, this should be a lot of fun. Hopefully it will start some interesting discussions. Too bad that color photos are almost non-existant. One or two words cannot describe a color. And by the way, anyone thinking of modeling the Riley might want to check the new coaches being offered by Rapido Trains of Canada. They look to be very close to the 2600-series coaches. They won't be painted in red and grey, though. They will be in the later greys and numbered for the 2645-2669 cars from AC&F. These will be available in both HO and N scale.
I brought this topic back as I finally found better information. I'm beginning to think that railfans and historians must be color blind. The window band and tender striping has been decribed as red, orange, and even yellow in various sources. My research had led me to believe the color was a deep orange, which I would call vermilion. That seems to have been correct. See the following: From a brochure published by the New York Central System in 1941: "The fast, dark gray Pacific locomotive, especially adapted to this new service, with its striking red driving wheels and trim, and the various cars of the train, effectively joined by the vermilion window band, give a touch of gayety, yet dignity; power and serviceability, are instantaneously reflected. The colorful new train unquestionably, will be one of the most distinctive in America, and one which will stir the imagination and win the approval of the traveling public. The silver-like lustre of the stainless steel coaches, a happy clash with the predominantly gray mail, dining and observation cars, and in sharp contrast with the vermilion window band, present a striking color combination." This is confirmed by the only color photo I have ever seen. It shows the dark gray tender and locomotive with "The James Whitcomb Riley" under the cab window, broad vermilion band on the tender with red NYC oval under it, and white driving wheels with vermilion ring. (Why this was mentioned as red in the brochure, I can't explain - sometimes I think we're all color blind). It makes sense to have all the trim in a matching color, in this case, vermilion. The locomotive, originally designed by Dreyfuss for the Mercury trains, had illuminated drivers and valve gear. If this feature was retained for the Riley, it must have been quite a sight at night on its return trip to Cincinatti.
I'm sure I've asked here befgore, but I'll do it again. I'm collecting for a model of the 1950s era train, 51 or 52 probably. I do have some questions though. How many trainsets were there? You list 1 baggage, but two Grill Diners. Was there then a train 3 AND a train 4? or did asingle train run North as Train 3 and South as Train 4? Clarify me on this: in 47 they got PS coaches? When did the Budds come back? Or were the PS cars corrigated as well? Also there's a pair of pictures on the Railpictures site of the Riley claiming 1966 (makes sense since there's a strig of diesels on it). While these are too late for me, it does give another view of the train. The pics are shot from a vestibule looking down each side of the train. In the picture the consist is as follows: Baggage-RPO-Baggage-10-6 (rpolly C&O or Sou)-3 coaches (stainless steel, Budd looking)-Grill Diner-3 or 4 more coaches The rest of the train is cut off by a building. Waht's interesting to note is that these cars ALSO have a colored window sash. Are these the original Budd Cars, or cars off the Mercury? For comparison, the 10-6 is the same uniform color, and the coach next to it is two color, as is the string the photographer is shooting along.
Unless there was reserve equipment, there was only one train set. The Riley ran to Chicago in the morning, and back to Cincinatti in the evening. There was three hours in which to service and turn the train in Chicago. The two (former Mercury) Pacific locomotives were both available originally to pull the Riley. Later J-3a Hudsons took over, and eventually diesels. The 3000-series Pullman -Standard coaches had smooth roofs but the sides were corrugated stainless steel. They blended nicely with Budd equipment. In later years there was probably a mixture of equipment. Maintaining the colored window band would not have been a priority. I'm sure it disappeared pretty early. The consist tended toward an all-silver train as time went on.
Kay. And one train it is. There's still confusion for me in your posting. Was it Budd or PS cars added in 1947? In the maun body, you sight Pullmans, but in the end you comment that the train went all stainless when the Budd coachess came. So which should I have in 1950?
Thanks to your question, I discovered an inconsistency in what I wrote originally. I will have to go back and correct that as follows: "The train ran with the red and gray cars until April 1947 when the coaches were replaced by the corrugated stainless steel Budd [Pullman-Standard] coaches." Replace Budd with Pullman-Standard. The rest is correct as it was taken directly from the text in the sources cited. I will add the comment that the ACF combination coach #298 was of corrugated aluminum construction, but looked similar to the corrugated stainless steel cars from Budd and Pullman-Standard. To further reinforce your question about the consist in 1950, here is a quote from a caption of the photo on page 62 of Doughty's book: "The Riley is seen after the 1948 arrival of the new streamlined stainless steel cars. One of the four Budd-built tavern/lounge/observation cars (Nos. 48-51) brings up the rear of the train. The coaches are of the 3000-series from P-S, while a Budd-built diner is located ahead of the two coaches. This was the standard consist of the train through much of the 1950s and into the 1960s." As for motive power, the Pacifics lost their streamlining, gave way to J-1e Hudsons, then J-3a Hudsons, and finally E-7 and E-8 diesels. Hope this helps, and thanks for bringing the error to my attention.
No problem. It just makes my life different. Gotta hunt for different cars. Onee more then, would it be safe then to say that Riley ran with 4-6 (And which is the better average?) of the 9 coaches (3000-3008) split roughly evenly on either side of the Diner and parked the other 3-5 to have on hand for rush crowds or to swap out for maintence? Believe it or not, I'm enjoying this conversation, I is learning stuff. And Dad gave me a copy of The Great Steel Fleet , but then God called him off and it ended up packed into stuff... Go figure
I have not been able to find any consist descriptions, at least not for 1950. The sleepers didn't run until 1953, so we can rule them out. The best description would be that photo and caption I mentioned in my last post. Going from back to front you have the Budd tavern/lounge #50, two 3000-series Pullman-Standard corrugated coaches, Budd grill-diner (452 or 453), more 3000-series coaches, and finally the ACF corrugated aluminum combination baggage coach #298 with one of the Hudsons up front. The actual number of coaches probably varied with seasonal traffic demands. The two grill-diners may have run together if the train was longer, but probably they were run singly and just swapped around to allow for servicing, cleaning, and re-stocking.
Mike: Found this in a google search, according to it's caption it's 1952, this also shows up in this years NYCTHS calendar, of ehich I might pick up. That is however. the JWR drumhead, and it's in color, with steam. I can make out 6 distinctive cars going by the step covers, maybe a seventh, and one car has two verticaldark lines, which could either be compresseion and perspective, or it could be where a pair of baggage doors are, and tthat looks to be another car between it and the consist, the ACF maybe?
Morgan, that's a great photo of a lovely train, thanks. :tb-cool: As for the date, it could be as late as 1952, but I think it probably is 3-5 years earlier. That's a 1940/41 Ford Super Deluxe sedan to the left of the Obs, making the car 11-12 years old if '52 is correct. It was rare for a car to survive that long unless it was really babied. Body rust was lethal due to road salting in the winter, and Ford's drive trains were good, but rarely 12 years good. Most folks traded cars every 3 years for good reason, and that car would have been 5 years old when WWII ended in late '45. That car just looks too good to be 12 years old, especially with the harsh winters in Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. :tb-hissyfit:
Earliest I can peg it based on the Observation is 1947, if Mike's info is indeed correct (see first post, the Budd Observation came in 47). Aaas fro the Ford, it looks to me (and colors will be off anyway) to be a faded blue, like it's seen the sun for quite a long time. I'm well familiar of Winters in Indiana, though fighting them, and the salt recepies my well have changed dramaticially. I am however driving a 21yr old car regularly that spends the majority of its time in the elements. It is also possible that the War Effort and the cutbacks allowed that car to be both driven less (fuel rationing) and remian longer (since I would expect the auto industry was cut back substantially to build military vehicles) but who knows. Ford did build a better car then than they do now.
The new coaches came in 1947. The Tavern lounge observation in January 1948 followed by the other stainless steel cars. As far as the photo (nice find), some good points have been made regarding the captioned date of 1952. I can add some other considerations. The NYC kept its passenger trains very clean in those days, but that observation car looks pristine. Is it possible the photo was taken late winter 1948 as the newly-equipped train probably attracted a lot of attention? No snow on the ground but the trees are bare and that is a healthy plume of steam above the locomotive. The 1952 date might still be accurate despite the appearance of that nice 1940 Ford in the background. In 1952 my father was still driving the 1940 Dodge that he bought new. This was in Ohio and it didn't look nearly as nice as the Ford in the photo. I guess anything is possible.
Alright, now I'm confused. Went back ad pulled that link, and I have the date wrong. It's not 1952. According to http://nycshs.blogspot.com/ it's 1955! And that's still a bare-treed shiny looking JWR with a healthy plume of smoke, that I sincerely doubt is bing put out by a laboring GP, and it's not dark enough to be an Alco. (Though I;m not sure we could pick out Alco vs. Steam anyway). It could be that their information was incorrect when they got the picture though, as it seems aweful late into the Steam engine's last days, eve considering how far behind the Indy area was.
It's possible that 1955 was when "they" received the photo, not when it was taken. I agree with you that 1955 probably was too late for the use of steam for a "named" train. An E7 or E8 would have been the more likely power. Furthermore, passenger train consists had become more rag-tag by 1955 with mixes of all types of exteriors. By 1955 the business of operating passenger trains was going down the tubes, and the Central was quickly losing it's Great Steel Fleet pride and morale. I think this photo of the JWR with all the same type of car is too perfect for 1955, probably more like the late 40s as Mike suggested. Looking at the photo more closely, the black outline of whatever is ahead of the first car appears to be larger than that car. This leads me to think that it's the outline of a steam locomotive's cab or tender. The outline of an E7 or E8 was the same as the streamlined cars of the period, so would not be seen in front of the car. Furthermore, the plume of steam above the locomotive is typical of a boiler pop-valve, originating at narrow point at the boiler and expanding rapidly upwards nearly 50 feet. (I assume the locomotive height to be about 15 feet.)
Well folks, I've gone and am doing it. I aquired a Hudson from my local hobby shop, actually 5344, but unless someone tells me that 44 was permanently assigned way out east, It was a subbed engine on my world, and I'd rather support my LHS than try to hunt for 5333. I've also got one of two 64seaters in hand, the other one's coming. Kinda a shame that Walthers only sup0plied decals for 3000-1, and 3007, so I'll have to piece numbers together for the other 2 cars. Still working on find ign the obs and diner, and I think (NYC and SP fans are gonna run me ouyt on a spit for this I;m sure) but I think I'd rather use the BLI/PCM Daylight ombine instead of the walthers Bag-Dorm sine it's atually a combine.
