The Kato GN empire builder SL passeger cars were somewhere on my wish list until this morning when I stumbled on a four car set at my local LHS. I got to see them up close and personal for the first time when the dealer flashed one at me. I was imediately sold, peeled out full MSRP, and raced home with them. First of all, I do not know exactly what the real empire builder cars looked like. I only know them for their pretty colors. So if the Kato cars aren't completely true to GN, what I don't know won't hurt me. Especially when you're running Unitrack on a grass mat. LOL. I just finished giving these cars a good run on my layout. They are major eye candy let me tell you. Especially when coupled together. Why did I put them off for so long? Even at MSRP they are a bargain. Drop dead gorgeous paint, interiors, close coupling with magnetic knuckle couplers, and illuminated marker lamps and drumheads on the observation. I don't have any GN covered wagons so I'm running a commuter train headed by a GN Atlas SD-7. Surprisingly, the paint match is quite good. A PCM E7 set should look good with these cars. Anyone tried this?
To John and all tuned in, Those GN Kato passenger cars are "Major eye candy", as you said. My research leads me to believe they are very close. As is the case with most models you may find something that isn't true to hoyle. Still they look mighty good and as closely replicate the real ones as rail fan possible. As with your wish list, now filled, they are on my wish list as well. Just after the Kato CA Zephyr 11 car passenger set. Which brings up the question where am I going to put it. The staging yard is already full up with multiple passenger trains. Enjoy! Easy for me to say...grin!
The PCM Great Northern E7's won't look that good ... the paint color is the "wrong" shade of orange; it's too much orange. And for the cost, I'm very disappointed in the two I own. :thumbs_down: Am still considering having my two GN E7's re-painted.
Well OK....The Kato F7's don't look good to me either. Can't get used to the silver trucks and grilles. The so called high water Intermountain units don't look so bad. Rick, a four car passenger train is about all my small layout can handle. In your case.....build display shelves! You can never have too many trains. BTW.
I wish Kato would at least come out with a correct Budd dome coach. I could then use that on the North Coast Limited.
The silver treatment was the GN passenger scheme on its E and F units while the freight had the black trucks. So with the silver trucks, stainless steel grill, dual headlights and steam generators, plus split tanks (feul and water) the Kato units are right on including the number series starting with 350 and up. GN ran a number of smaller trains such as the Badger and Gopher, Red River, International, and Cascadian mostly behind single or ocassional dual E-7s. When they wern't available then a set of F units either as a A-B or A-A passenger Fs substituted. Normal consists on those trains would be a baggage/RPO, coach (1 or 2), a sleeper, and a lounge/obs. The Badger and Gopher Had unique square end lounge/obs units that could be run either end and did not need to be turned. So a 4 or 5 car train would not be out of line for a short haul. The GN E-7s did not work out on the Empire Builder due to the mountains. They even tried them for awhile with a F-7B spliced in between the two E-7As which was not successful either. So the E-7s were relegated to the short hauls and replaced by F-3s. Some of the early shorthauls were pulled by AB sets of FTs with steam generators in the B units and a few FA-1 units with steam generators. GN also had some heater or steam generator cars which allowed freight units to sub in. Basically they were short converted heavyweight baggage cars, later a few converted F-3B units, and even later some 50 foot boxcars converted to heater cars. All were painted in Empire Builder colors, later Big Sky Blue and a few into the green scheme prior to the BN merger. A number made it into the BN era. Anyhow your options are numerous to run the Green and Orange. One comment on the color variations. Although a bear for the modeler trying for a matched consist when mixing units from different manufacturers, it is not out of line to have some shade differences since the prototype did too. Thats why so many discussions on what shade of green and occasionally orange. One of the best books that illustrates the effects of age and weathering on the colors is Great Northern In Color, Volume 1, Lines West by David Hickcox. Thus two units several years apart in age setting side by side graphically illustrate that difference in a number of the color photos. I recently got the chance, at a trainshow to view the complete Kato Empire Builder running behind a A-B-A set of Kato Fs on the local Ntrak club layout. I had to get away quickly before I drooled on the trackwork and shorted the system.
John, thanks for the history on the Empire Builder. Interesing reading. I am having second thoughts about the Kato F units. I've only seen them in the jewel case. That reminds me. I have a set of Kato BN units so I can run a transition train in the meantime. I have that famous pic of 352-C's pulling a GN pass train through a flowery medow. They have black trucks but appear to be F-3's. The pic has always inspired me. I also have the Video Rails GN series and the shots of E7's blasting through mountainy territory turns my crank the most. Maybe I can live with the loud orange on the PCM units. Maybe my dealer will let me take a closer look. I agree with you on the correct shade of green for GN. There is none. I've seen some pretty comical flame wars on the Atlas N forum over this. Boy did I take a beating defending Atlas by stating the Atlas shades are prettier than the prototype...LOL. From what I've seen in photos, it seems model companies are a tad off in color. The one single engine I own that comes closest is a Williams O gauge Hustle Muscle SD-45. To me, the shades are rather dull. But, I am more of a collector than a prototype modeler. I like dazzling colors. As far as your comments about drooling are concerned, this Kato set has taken my N scale enjoyment to the next level. Still can't get over the roof antenaes and illuminated marker lamps/drum head.
I'm glad to see some further discussion as to paint and authenticity of Kato sets. I found problems with the CA Zephyr domes as well and the Santa Fe Chief's domes and yet I don't know of any other product or provider out there, that comes any closer. Con-Cor does well but the quality just isn't there. I'm having problems with the trucks and couplers...with derails unlimited. Can I send you some? <Grin> Now that's a fact. Display shelves, hidden staging yards and time sitting in the Union Station, ought to take care of it. "You can never have too many trains" as coined by Mr. J. Long. Right back at you!
Rick...I've examined the Con Cor cars with the the drooping Rapidos. Answer, spend ten bucks a car on MT trucks and weights and you exceed the price of Kato. I like your tagline. There is a prototype for anything you put on your layout. How true. Especially if you model the 60's. Anything goed then.
The "new" Kato GN F7's are prototypical ... but only for 1955-57.... at which point GN repainted the trucks black as the units came in for maintenance/servicing. As for the Farr type grills, those have always been "silver" (actually they're stainless steel) ... I don't know that GN ever actually painted them, but they did become very 'weathered.'
Yes, I watched the video again yesterday (Video Rails GN vol II) and the stainless does show through the all the soot, mud, and grime. I liked the SDP-45 shots. We need SDP-45's.
Con Cor Cars J. Long and all tuned in, You are so correct, with regards to the ConCor's. ConCor has for sometime provided a new knuckle coupler. I've had nothing but trouble with it and the employee of a Sacramento, CA., LHS was good enough to advise me of such and suggest switching them over to Unimate Couplers. The ConCor knuckle coupler won't integrate with Micro-trains or Unimate and they won't stay coupled on a downhill grade. I took the advise of that LHS employee and I've been switching over to Unimate medium shank couplers. There is a downside however, I have to pull off one of the diaphragms, as the Unimates tend to come up short. The LHS employee said that would happen. It is a quick fix until I can afford to switch them over to Micro-trains. You like my tag line...so do I. I used to say it another way, "Take enough time and research and you will find a prototype for anything you want to do with your layout". It lacks a disclaimer and I had to rethink it when I found a modular with dinosours roaming around smashing automobiles and destroying buildings. Hey, the guy was replicating a Hollywood movie shoot. So there you go! Sorry, I didn't mean to hi-jack this thread away from the GN train cars. Back to the subject at hand. There are websites out there where you can do your own research. Do an ooogle Gooogle search for Great Northern Passenger Cars and see what comes up. Regarding the Paint Schemes and a comment made earlier. Paint on any train had a tendency to fade. Resulting in various shades of orange and green...any one of which would be correct to paint our favorites... those candied marvels.
This is the kind of thing I was afraid of and why I would prefer to bite the bullet and buy the entire MT truck/coupler assembly. I installed a pair on a truckless Rivarossi combine I got for a buck. You can adjust the coupler extension to where you want it. It was a five minute no hassle job and worked real slick. The car preforms flawlessly. Probably much better than with stock trucks. One thing I like about the Con Cor cars is the large windows. They are just plain cool.
Only Con Cor produced cars for NCL ... the only way (so far) to Kato NCL cars is to have them customed painted.:angry: :thumbs_down:
The Kato Smoothside cars are all Union Pacific prototypes except for the Observation, which is a Pullman car used on the SP Lark. The RPO is very, very close for a GN prototype. The rest of the cars are reasonable stand-ins except, perhaps, for the Dome which is a UP/Wabash only car as built. As has been mentioned the GN Domes were Budd corrugated/slab sided cars. The Con-Cor "smoothside" Dome is modeled after the GN/NP Budd Dome Coach. I suspect that Kato intended to do the Empire Builder correctly but was warned off by another manufacturer who already had the research done for the train and intends to do it in N..... but I don't have any inside information as fact. Just putting 2+2 together.... The Con-Cor smoothside cars are all GN prototypes.... the Diner and the Duplex sleeper are, unfortunately, mirror images of the way they should be because of a toolmaker's error. The last run of the Empire Builder cars by Con-Cor make up a nice train, however, and hold up well even against the Kato release. I did the artwork for the first Kato release and it includes CB&Q, SP&S owned Empire Builder cars as well as some cars used on other GN trains and marked "Great Northern" instead of "Empire Builder". I too don't like the silvered truck era units but would prefer the Intermountain (and of course the PCM!!!) units because of paint jobs and better mechanisms and more assured repair part availability (all the Kato F units prior to the DCC Friendly units are now partless due to the total redesign of the mechanism and Kato's policy of only running parts used in a current production). Charlie Vlk
John - that's interesting info. I knew that they had converted an F3B to a heater car and also thought that they had coverted some old steam tenders. I hadn't heard of baggage and box cars being used. Does anyone have a link to a photo?
Micro Trains Wheelsets and Couplers J. Long and again all tuned in. I agree with you regarding the Micro Trains wheelsets and knuckle couplers. Here's to hoping I can get them switched over fairly soon. I just got off the internet with Con Cor, for reasons other then the topic at hand. I discovered they will add Micro-trains wheelsets and knuckle couplers for $5.00 per car. Can you beat that? The Con Cor interiors although sky blue in color are well done. I will be painting them various shades of Navajo White, Linen White, and very light Tan. Typically for Budd produced passenger cars the details are close to the original. It's good to hear from the GN enthusiast on this subject.
After looking at more pics, my mind is made up on PCM E7's. After my budget is back in tune of course. In the meantime I'm enjoying my SD-7 commuter train. The news about MT couplers and wheelsets is good news. I especially like the CC boat tail looking observation. I grew up in GN/NP territory and have always loved the colors. I was not real thrilled with big sky blue however. I remember seeing a glacier green rocky boxcar for the first time when I was real little (early 60's). It planted an everlasting image. N Scale Railroading did a GN boxcar study last year and I think I wore that issue to shreds.
This site has a number of photos of the GN heater cars which saw use on both ends of the system. The shorty baggage conversions were the first and used primarily up on the electric portion in the Cascades. A few saw use though in Minnesota. There was an article some years ago on how to build one of the last series done from 50 foot boxcars in one of the model mags. http://www.greatnorthernempire.net/index2.htm?GNEPreservedGNPassengerCars_HeaterCars.htm
