Milwaukee Road steam tenders?

WIrail Mar 1, 2022

  1. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    I saw a OMI kit in ho for them a while ago, and even though I model N scale I'm wondering what sort of tender they were made off to go with my shapeways Joe.
     
  2. SLSF Freak

    SLSF Freak Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    I've seen at least two models of heat tenders on the Milwaukee Road. The one most commonly seen looks to be off of their scrapped Hudsons but I can't find any documentation to support that as fact, just picture evidence that the 4-6-4s seem to have that style tender. Unfortunately I haven't seen an off-the-shelf match in N Scale except brass. I have the MILW heat tender in mid-design but it's been a stalled project for several years at this point so there's no eta on when I'll actually finish it. ( I designed your Shapeways Joe, btw (y) )

    Cheers -Mike
     
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  3. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    I don't recall OMI ever making a kit form of their HO brass MILW steam heat tenders.

    As far as I can recall, as Mike noted, they did come from retired F6 or F6a (don't recall which) steamers. Unless something slipped past, there has never been anything close as a basis to start from, in N scale.

    If you model either E20 or E21, you don't need one of these tenders. :)
     
  4. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    I didn't even know they made them in brass, I actually have one of the Overland Joe's in N scale, but it's in the plain orange & black late livery, and I have no plans to strip it or anything. I've seen maybe 3 pictures tops of those tenders, but still it's an interesting prototype to model.
     
  5. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    I thought E20 and E21 were the passenger Joes that ran with the tenders, did they have built in generators instead?
     
  6. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    E20 and 21 were the passenger Joes. Both were boiler equipped. It was housed in the "B" end of the unit. When passenger operations ended, they were re-geared for freight. A tender allowed the other ten to be used in passenger service. Lots of photos out there of E20 and 21 in passenger service, no heater car.
     
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  7. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    Are there any external differences between the EP4 and EF4's? I haven't really found any photos of 21 or 20 that weren't hauling freight.
     
  8. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    I did a bit more research, was the only visible difference on the EP4's the fact that their cab was welded over before the others?
     
  9. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    A steam vent. I believe they had theirs welded over first. But cannot recall right now. From what I can remember, there was no particular sequence. What I was told by shop folks, a couple were done due to such as broken windows.
     
  10. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    If the EP-4's came from the shops like that with their windows welded over, I think they were the first as the others had both cabs usable for a while. Not really sure when they switched over from the orange-maroon-black paintjob to the plain orange and black, but that seems when they were welded over for all.
     
  11. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    Apparently the EP and EF used slightly different trucks, does anyone have some photos of the differences or some more photos of the heat tenders?
     
  12. SLSF Freak

    SLSF Freak Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Broadly speaking, if you're modelling the 50's the thing that's going to separate a EP from an EF will be roller bearing trucks on the EPs, the B cab side windows of the EP were a little different, the B cab roof of the EP had some kind of contoured plate that spanned the width of the cab, possibly a vent? Also on the EPs around the pantograph mounts were boxes with piping around. I vaguely remember hearing those boxes were actually water tanks but I can't remember where I heard that. It would make sense if they were because that probably gave them the idea to box in the EFs and pour concrete in them for added weight/traction around 1956. The freight scheme came about staring in 1965. Number boards were added to the roof around 1956. Here's b-cab and pan details I mention:
    milw_e20.jpg

    I don't know about the windshields of the EPs being welded from the start - my gut's telling me they weren't but if an early photo of the B can be found we'd get a definitive answer to that. I scanned every photo I've got and couldn't find such a picture. here's a side shot of E-20 that looks like there's daylight shining thru the windshield of the B side when you zoom in: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/47/12/f9/4712f93b04576dc796c00b5139162742--forks-montana.jpg

    Cheers -Mike
     
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  13. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    Not really sure, from what I read they were welded over but I think overland's HO Joe had the same setup as your picture, welding over the 2 square side windows, leaving the windshield and angled windows see-through.
     
  14. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Trucks were the all same in appearance. There were a few derailments, which after repairs might have seemed to make car bodies or truck frames less alike. And of course the well noted E78 rebuild.

    There were two styles of steam heat tenders. One was the more noted F6 (heater car numbers #73-77) and F6a (#72) Hudson tender conversion. The other, they built at least two out of former express box cars. I know there are photos in books. Morning Sun shows each type in their "Equipment, Volume 1". I have a slide or two in my collection, boxed up and buried.
     
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  15. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    This is what they looked like, when "B" end windows were plated over. All windows were done on the end. A freight unit, but they were all done the same way:

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    They were not initially plated over.
     
  17. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    If you take a look at the CSS&SB "800" units, you can see the difference in pan heights. The boxes were added to raise the pantographs up. MILW trolley standard was a heavier main line style. CSS&SB used a lower, interurban type wire.
     
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  18. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    Never even noticed that difference on the South Shores, but it's not like I've looked at them very much. Do you think the EP's kept their maroon stripes after they were converted to EP's, or was that around the time they started repainting them?
     
  19. BoxcabE50

    BoxcabE50 HOn30 & N Scales Staff Member TrainBoard Supporter

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    Passenger service west of Deer Lodge ended in May of 1961. Use of the EP Joe's had stopped well before then. They were just running diesels all the way through to the coast. Repainting was done as units were shopped.
     
  20. WIrail

    WIrail TrainBoard Member

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    I read somewhere passenger service & the EP's were both taken out at the same time in 1964, and from what I saw in a photo, it wasn't all at once painting as you said. However, I did find a photo of a EP pulling a steam tender for some reason on the same site. It's weird trying to pinpoint when stuff happened, because all I've seen is photos with years of gaps between that locomotive being photographed again, and because of all the little differences in the engines, it's a little confusing trying to get their details right. Finally ordered some decals to finish E21 though, just got to figure out window inserts and maybe get some better photos of the EP's.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    http://newdavesrailpix.com/cmstp/cmstp_sub_litjoe.htm
     

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