MTL Z March Items

hi jurg,
yes it's still a hobby. you know, this whole thing has gotten way to personal. joe doesn't decide policy, but he drives the engineering and development to get us Z products. he makes an open statement about wanting to make something right and some people smell blood and just can't wait to get their licks in.

i've noticed that all of those who have a "product" to sell in Z feel they have to assert themselves over MTL. instead of it all being complimentary, it becomes a "king of the hill" match where you have to throw down the top guy in order to establish yourself. instead of offering a product as good as you can make it, there is all this bashing going on as if asserting oneself over MTL is going to increase the sales.

i like AZL and Full Throttle and Pennzee and MTL and so on. i think MTL has been wrong about some things, but they've produced more product with more variety than anyone thus far -- and they produce affordable products! good things cost money, but you shouldn't have to be a rich, Z scale elitest to enjoy the HOBBY! there is a place for all the products.

i used to like railwire forum. i like the format and the look, but it has taken on a stink that reminds me of the N scale wars that raged on the Atlas forums for years. there are some folks on whom you can count to say ONLY crap about Micro-trains -- and they find a place to make their voices heard.

i like Z scale and hope this trainboard forum keeps on being a place for modelers and hobbyist to gather and encourage one another. let those who want to shout go and snap their suspenders somewhere else.
dave f.

 

you might have it backwards. mt may not be the innocent bystander you make them out to be. try and find the truth about how some of their products came onto the market in the first place. think its just coincidence that mtl and marsilius just happen to introduce similar passenger cars around the same time? or that azl and mt both came out with geeps around the same time? how about that n scale caboose that athearn just happens to be making too? ask them how they came up with the idea for there z scale ps2 coverd hopper. you may never find out, because they dont want anyone to know.

jim k

 

I wonder what would happen If one gets picky about details in a steam engine.... I guess there will be none like now!! it will be almost impossible to make a steam prototypically perfect even if cost were not an issue... It is good and bad.. The manufacturers get better with the next set of products and the bad is reluctance to come out with newer products and longer time to make them. Also if there were no representative from the manufacturer responding to all the complains then the voices will die down because it will be of no use complaining. For me as a buyer no amount of badmouthing a manufacturer makes a difference to my buying habits. I built my own biases based on various factors first being the cost vs quality and none included the screaming voices.
Kim

 

you might have it backwards. mt may not be the innocent bystander you make them out to be. try and find the truth about how some of their products came onto the market in the first place. think its just coincidence that mtl and marsilius just happen to introduce similar passenger cars around the same time? or that azl and mt both came out with geeps around the same time? how about that n scale caboose that athearn just happens to be making too? ask them how they came up with the idea for there z scale ps2 coverd hopper. you may never find out, because they dont want anyone to know.

jim k


Simple "Corporate world" and "free market" no one is a saint. It helps the consumers... for now. no complains there. Microsoft did the same still many people love them and they are in business. That is why I switched to a Mac and love it. Was Marklin nice to its competitors?
Kim

 

How about Intermountain announcing FTs after MTL did...

How about Athearn and Roundhouse duplicating anything they can at any time from anyone...

Speaking of which: the bay window cabeese? How about someone from Athearn read the TB thread that Joe D'Amato started on "What you'd like to see from MTL"-- probably not a thread you'll ever see repeated on any public forum, anywhere.

Business is business, and model railroading still is a business. Those in the business of relentlessly posting slams (especially off topic hijackings) at any manufacturer almost certainly has a hidden agenda, or a real problem with insecurity, immaturity or both.

 

You asked...I think anyone who's been on any yahoo group or Board I belong to know that I am prone to let cats out of the bag faster than Loren can make trees. I have no idea what the other companies are making...they don't post on the internet and they don't call me up to talk it over.

As for the Marsilius Car...had no idea he was working on one. Ours were in development for 2 years before they were introduced...no one called me up and told me about his car. And guess what, we did different prototypes, so I don't see the problem.

When we decided to do the GP's...specifically the GP 9, I contacted AZL because we had discussed at shows earlier that we would try not to walk on each other with new products. We were going to do the GP7, but Rob noted they were developing it, so we did the 9. Again, our development was very advanced at that time and I was not going to scrap good metal. So we compromised...AZL did a cool GP7 and we did a cool GP9. Sure we could have done something else, but I don't recall anyone writing us a check to do a new tool.

The Athearn thing came out of left field...again, no one told me they were doing one, no one from the inside gave me a sneak peek. I did ask several years ago what folks wanted on a number of boards and the Bay Window Caboose was a clear winner. I suspect they saw that too, combined with their research decided to do one not knowing we were working on it.

Hey, I announced last year we were doing Heavyweights in N scale and all of a sudden I find out another manufacture is going to do them as well....I'm sure there will be folks who will call me names and accuse me of trying to cut the feet out from under that company like they did with the FT...and you know...you got it backwards.

Understand, we don't talk about our development projects to other mfgs...it would be stupid to do so. Does Ford share with Chevy new designs...I don't think so. For the folks who say talking would lead to more variety? Ok, who is going to back down on a competing design or product when they both think they can make money on it? If I had a U Boat under development and Azl said they had one too...say the same model...is it in the best interest of my company, and my family to give that up to AZL? Would you expect Rob and Rob and Hans to do it. Of course not. Nothing personal, it's just good business. No one does this to make another company money...cause they don't send me checks to by food with at the end of every month...nor do I.

But this post is interesting in that, the assumption is that somehow MTL is being underhanded. Where do you get that? Gosh, I announce stuff all the time way before we ever used to...and to some degree it bites us back. But I believe in being up front and I want to share all the cool things we are doing. We have some of the first shots of our N Scale Heavyweights coming off the press Monday...I'm sure even if I share them with the boards, if someone else comes out with the same car months or years later, we'll be accused of ripping them off.

So you asked, and it wasn't hard to find the truth...if you belive me...was it?

Cheers

Joe
MTL

 

i think the truth will stay buried deep. but for what it's worth, ask you boss to come clean. but dont count on hearing the truth tho.

hehe, you guys crack me up. you got a few diehards who treat mtl like they were next to god, but question their ethics even the littlest bit and you either get treated like you just spit on the pope, or you get, oh, its just business, just business. make sure everybody gets equal blame, and suddenly its all aok cause its just business and everybody does it.

this is a hobby, boys and girls, not the car industry. the markets to small to have trade secrets and competition and duplicated products. its a waste. get together and figure out what your all doing. use each of your strengths to make the best stuff you possibly can. make it all compatible.

hah. dream on.

jim k

 

Do you just keep lists of what we do wrong or do other manufacturers enjoy your attention?

Not enough red meat on the Atlas Forum for you? )

Sure we make mistakes and so does Atlas and Athearn and Walthers and AZL and everyone else. And guess what, we are all going to continue to do so...not intentionally, hopefully less each month, not to keep you up at night worrying about what insult we hoisted on the prototypical community in the next Micro-News...nothing personal.

It's not like we are holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy our cars. I mean, you've posted 19 times on Train Board, and I wonder if there's there's been a positive word about anything in any of them. It's a hobby dude, if we are so screwed up, buy somebody elses stuff.

Pointing out problems is easy, coming up with solutions is a different story. If you can't be constructive...then you become irrevelant. Show us some of your work...do you model or keep track of what we do wrong. You sound like someone who prides themselves on being prototypical...show us what you got. It's not a prerequisite to contribute here, but I think it owes to your credability if folks understand what it is you actually do. Just trying to help you out.

Again, we make mistakes and we try not to. If you want perfection or even near perfection, your going to be disapointed way, way too much. Hopefully we'll get better.

Joe

 

Joe, Who else? Just curious because I haven't heard of it.

 

I heard ConCor is doing new tooling...not sure what and when. I was told in Milwaukee that Walthers might do some as well. I know of another smaller mfg that has plans but cannot discuss it. So I figure in a year or so there will be a flush of new Varnish....great for everyone.

Joe

 

Folks, this IS a hobby and it is supposed to be fun. Do I wish there were more things available in Z, sure. But I am not going to get an ulcer because a piece of rolling stock I would really like isn't available, or if it is, it's not exactly prototypical. I can always try to kitbash one or ask someone else whose work I respect do it. The manufacturers providing us with Z scale products do a bang up job in my view. Are they perfect, no, but they are darn good. I have a great way to put this nonsense into perspective - we all have problems in our lives and we can get pretty depressed at times, but when I walk into the medical examiner's lab, I know someone has had a darn worse day than anything I have experienced.

Let's focus on the fun we have playing with trains.

John

 

Amen Brother !

You get to see first hand what a bad day can really look like...we got nothing compared to that.

Joe

 

one of my daughter's best friends is a girl she had wars with in middle school. one of my closest friends in jr. high school bullied me in grade school. some things change for the better. now that we've watched this fist fight occur (no one seemed to want it, but some didn't want it to stop) -- maybe we can start over on better terms.

that's what i'd like to see come of this "discussion". i love Z scale -- so lets not let it become like N scale! lets learn from their (bad) example.

i think we might all feel better having cleared the air. if not -- there's always the railwire forum.
dave f.

 

Well, no one asked me for my opinion, and most don't care, but I'll just say this much....

If you want to be a nit picker, go for it. Most of us don't care that much to get our underware all knotted up in tight wads.......cuts the circulation off and makes you cranky, and it makes you walk with a limp too.

So what if things aren't perfect..........so what if things aren't 100% accurate.......so what if you or I don't get our way all the time.

The world will go on with or without the whiners. I think it doesn't need any of us really, but for the sake of Z let's just move on and enjoy our "cute" little toys.

There, now I've gone and done it, calling them 'cute' and toys.

Ask me if I care what you think......I don't.

And it would be really nice if you agreed with everything I said or did, but you know what.....it doesn't matter.

Keep the Z flowing, perfect or imperfect.

Loren