My coffee table Z scale trains

Wayno Mar 1, 2024

  1. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    Hi there everyone, first off I am not that computer smart, I do not understand how to post photos using URL.

    I have a large coffee table, it is close to 3' X 4', but the borders have some overhang, this reduces the size to about 40" X about 30", it started out in a smaller coffee table, and I used the Meet in New Orleans train set(81835), I designed a 2 circuit track layout in a much smaller space, I did this back in 2005 for my dad, each circuit had 2 complete circles using 2 levels, it also had tunnels which in hindsight can become an issue, my dad died and I inherited this small coffee table train and it sat in my closet until last winter.

    I pulled the complete train board holding all the track out of the smaller coffee table and put it into the center of the larger coffee table, I then added a 3rd circuit so now this coffee table has 3 different trains with their own power packs and switch controllers, I just started working on this early December, I am at the point where I finally have it to the point where all three trains will run for close to a half hour sometimes without derailing, but I have more changes to make as I make things interesting, I will try pasting a phot here to see if it works of the track layout, it is a very busy place.

    [​IMG]

    I do have a question, for slow operation is it better to have locomotives with 3 pole motors or 5 pole motors, I do not like them racing around as it is hard to keep track of where they are all the time and I have wrecks, a I figured out how to cross another circuits track yet still keeping the circuits separate, I ask for more than one reason, as the crossing has a dead spot depending on the locomotive, I have to use 2 locomotives(small steam type ones, 8800 type) at once to get across the dead spot or I have to be moving very fast using one, this crossing makes things interesting and I am planning on adding another one, my diesel type locomotive with 4 axles crosses this dead spot without a hiccup.
     
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  2. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    Hi Wayne, Welcome to Trainboard. Your layout looks fun, you can watch lots of trains running. For slow speed running, the 5 pol motors are a little better than the 3 pole locomotives, but if you get a Gaugemaster and connect it will make both the 3 pole and 5 pole locos slow speed characteristics much better.

    Ztrack Center sells them if you need one, but I would recommend researching the Gaugemaster Electronic Track Cleaner.
     
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  3. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    I have a few issues with my locomotives that I want to ask about rray, but the computer battery is almost dead, I quickly looked at your last post in your thread and I like what I seen, I have not even started thinking about trees and houses/buildings yet, I need to get things working like I want them to, my turns are so sharp in some places that my long steam locomotive(4 axle) will not get around them unless it is really moving, I am looking for another 4 axle diesel locomotive, but not another green one, I will get confused if I have to that look/are the same.

    I will also do some research on that link you provided, the computer battery is almost dead(13%), I need to log out now.
     
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  4. JoeS

    JoeS TrainBoard Member

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    Gaugemasters are excellent and you can purchase snail speed controllers as well. They make a huge difference
     
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  5. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    OK, I have a question about the "Gaugemaster Electronic Track Cleaner rray, I have bought 2 different Marklin power packs/speed controllers if that is the right term, both were supposed to be made for Marklin locomotives, of the 3 types(what I have and what I bought) none of them show the same specifications, the ones that came with the original Marklin train set say they put out a maximum of 8 volts, the first one I bought for the 3rd circuit said 9 volts(I had issues), and the one I have now for the 3rd circuit says it puts out 12 volts, now I have not had issues with the ones that came with the set, nor have I had issues with the one that puts out 12 volts, but that one that puts out 9 volts, well I thought it destroyed my locomotives, first I tested it with my green diesel locomotive, I ran it about 40" total and it did not run right although I got it to move, next I just used a terminal piece of track and tested the 8800 locomotive, it moved about 4", but neither locomotive worked properly when I used them with my normal controllers after that, the 8800 locomotive jumped around and would not hold a steady speed but it would keep moving, but the diesel locomotive would not keep moving with the controller at full blast, it would not start on its own, when I helped it, it would jump and move 4 to 6 inches and stop, over a half hour I kept helping it start and it would move a little farther each time, after that first half hour it would keep moving but it would not run slow, I kept it running for another half hour full blast and it finally moved fast enough to actually come off the track on a very sharp corner, but in the end it does not move fast anymore, full blast it rarely derails unless it is towing cars behind it, it has never been the same, but as time has passed I have been able to run it slower and slower, at the very first I could not keep it moving under a 100 on the controller and it still was not reliable, since then it will keep moving most the time as slow as 70, but I cannot go any slower as it will just stop and will not start again reliably unless helped even when turning up the speed, both locomotives have improved to the point where I can use them, but I am paranoid now about anything involved with the speed controllers/power packs, the 12 volt version I have not had an issue, I thought my diesel locomotive was ruined when it happened, I originally thought the brushes got fried, but the place that sold me the 12 volt max power pack/contoller suggested it was the aperture and I was lucky the locomotive still worked, but to this day if turn the locomotive around and run it backwards/the other way on the track it starts messing up bad and jumping around again, this is why I am paranoid now, I read what it said in that link, if it detects an issue it turns on, once the issue is not detected anymore it turns off automatically, it does not say much more about the product, this sound s great but I would need 3 of them, and I am paranoid about experimenting now.
    The locomotive that was only run 4" appears to be fine now and running two at once is not an issue anymore, at first it/they jumped around and caused car derailments/disconnecting, the jerking between the two locomotives(same version/8800) was awful, but they are smooth now and rarely do cars separate, I thought it was the weight of the car or something at first as I could not put more than a couple certain cars(boxes) behind a locomotive, but I use all the cars now without issues as I can run both the locomotives(2 circuits) slower now.

    Are you sure that Gaugemaster Electronic Track Cleaner is compatible with my power packs and locomotives, I was told that 9 volt max power pack was compatible, but it wasn't, and when he tested it in the shop where I bought it he used a brand new locomotive which I told him I would not do that before he tried, the new locomotive would not move, he was going to give me my money back but I traded him for Marklin cars instead.

    I am just paranoid now, where I live Z scale stuff is hard to find/buy and the shop I have been going to, it has not had any locomotives except a used one I bought(8800) with the proper couplers, I have been searching ebay recently, but most locomotives on there do not distinguish between 3 and 5 pole motors, plus I need pivoting axles like the diesels have as I have some sharp corners that my 4 wheel steam locomotive will not make it around without excessive speed as the wheels are fixed.

    It appears I like to listen to myself talk, but I wanted to give my reply some context.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2024
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  6. sumgai

    sumgai TrainBoard Member

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    Train-love in the time of HOS *Hardened Oil Syndrome" a purely german disease. Reviving Marklin locomotives primer:
    http://www.zscale.org/articles/revival.html
    Does your wife make you eat on 19 year old tarnished silverware? Why would you run trains on the same? A primer on track cleaning:
    http://www.zscale.org/articles/cleaning.html
    When a dead locomotive is better than an electrocuted locomotive, those darn deadspot turnouts/crossings:
    http://www.zscale.org/articles/turnoutstalling.html
    heres a thought, rather than double head a set of 8800's put one on the front of the train and one on the rear
    : either loc is still on a full power track while the other is stuttering through the crossing
    Stopping the use of Mother Hand and her five daughters for motive power, more power argh, argh, argh:
    http://www.zscale.org/articles/power.html

    feel free to sneak a peak at ALL the other articles in this encyclopedia of Z.
    my eyes got sorta crossed on the trafo/controller paragraph. Three German power plants: The Blue original 6727: only good for 3 pole motors, those old timers don't start to crank until 3 volts, so the trafo starts 0 = 3 volts. try that with a modern can style motor locomotive and it will start running as soon as you put it on the track.
    Marklin Iron Duke white power packs (from your meet me in NO set) 67271 The best by far, designed for 5 pole running, but 3 pole does just fine. Good German manufacturer also makes LGB power packs. The most amperage 10VA of the three.
    Marklin wall wart (newest) power packs 67014 also white, but only one VA (amp) and 12 v, hmn. couldn't fry a gnat, but with those asian-sourced wall warts I hear alot of people that got em in the newest marklin starter sets are looking to replace the wall wart part from burnout. they REALLY are not meant for the 3 pole power-hungry motors, they are for the new can motors marklin is switching to.

    Gaugemaster: not one of these marklin power packs are worth a bucket of warm spit for powering a gaugemaster track cleaner from the accessory terminals (too low a voltage output.) You need a 16v AC accessory jack power source to give the gaugemaster the appropriate bite (sting) to your hand when you touch a rail when it is working. (don't hurt the locs at all, just fries oil droppings and dirt to a crispy easy to wipe off flakes. z track sells them with the 16v power included: https://ztrackcenter.com/controllers/GA1w16V

    buy more meet me in new orleans trafos (Marklin 67271) to make all your power uniform and powerful enough to run all trains.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2024
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  7. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    Thankyou very much sumgai, I already read some of the "do it yourself in Z scale" articles before, but I did not know about all them subjects, it will take me time to read it all.

    I will buy one of these units(ztrackcenter.com/controllers/GA1w16V) and try it, rray also suggested that exact unit.

    I did buy a new locomotive today to replace the 4 axle steam locomotive I have that has issues with the sharp corners(sharper turns than any Marklin track curves sold I know of), I actually modified the track back in 2005 so I could make the turns sharper as the coffee table was small, I bought the Marklin 8878 locomotive with a 5 pole motor, it was only $60.00 more expensive than the used locomotives I was looking at and it was bought local and new, I like buying local if possible.

    I tried my two 8800 locomotives in all sorts of different positions, I think with one box car between the locomotives it went thru the crossing the smoothest, but that was a while ago now(a month ago?), I have them together now as it looks more realistic, since buying the new locomotive I will likely replace them with the new locomotive, and use them on the circuit with the sharpest turns now, I have had no issues with that locomotive on sharp turns, originally when I built the first coffee table train setup I had no crossings so there were no dead spots, but the crossings make it interesting for me, I am planning on another crossing with the other circuit, all three circuits will then have a crossing.

    Keep in mind that I have had both 8800 locomotives apart recently and cleaned them and they run much better/more smoothly now, one needs parts but still works(part that comes in contact with the wheels, it is missing one of the nubs), I think I need to find a parts catalog/list of someplace that actually has the parts to sell, catalog was mentioned in one of them replies(I will need to read the posts again), one of the links above had symptoms of locomotives, I will read it again as one of the 8800 locomotives does run hotter than the other and acts up sometimes after it has been warmed up, it works fine when first started(cold), but has way less issues since pulled apart and cleaned.

    Yes these trains did set for years unused, I cleaned all the track until the locomotives quit stopping, and yes the wheels also get dirty/oily and cause issues also, I had the American diesel type one apart to clean it, but I need to read about how to clean that one as I could not see how to get it apart to clean it, I used air on it which I will not do again, it came back to life and runs a lot better, the 8800 locomotives are easy for me to clean.

    I have a lot of reading to do.
     
  8. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    I used my white Marklin pack with the Gaugemaster about 20 years ago with great results, but I never had any other Marklin packs, as I went to DCC. I do have an 4 for $10 LED/Motor PWM from Amazon that controls my christmas tree z scale layout, but I power it with an old 12V 2A power supply taken from an old wifi router.
     
  9. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    As I said, I bought a new locomotive(8878), it is awesome, it crawls at any speed without stopping, what it great is it makes the crossing without any hesitation at all barely moving, but this did not happen out of the box, the crossing needed more modifying, I actually had to remove a piece in the crossing which made a large gap, I the only way I can tell is it is glass smooth now while before the train jumped and the car being pulled left on the curve would derail except at a certain speed, that speed was what I strived/hunted for, now the crossing is glass smooth on the curve at anything except high speed, the other circuit(straight) is a lot better also, it is not as bumpy and I can get across it(the crossing) at a much slower speed now, not as slow as the new locomotive does on the other circuit, but less than half the speed of before, but it took me sanding some of the Atlas crossing plastic down, it appears it was lifting the Marklin locomotive off the rails, my diesel locomotive bottom is almost the same height as the rails, so the plastic sticking up above the rails on the crossing was hitting the bottom, I did the cutting/sanding by hand, so it is not uniform, but it is a lot better, only the locomotive moves around a little making the crossing, the cars cross glass smooth.

    The crossing.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The new locomotive is not near as fast as my other locomotives, half the speed at best, and slower to accelerate, it slows down much faster than it accelerates, I am using the original power pack/speed controller that came with this train set(81835), the new power pack/speed controller was being used with my 8800 steam locomotives that I ran in tandem, the used one I bought smoked when they came to a stop, I turned the power off and then back on again after moving both locomotives a little I gave it power and it smoked again, I pulled it apart and metal fell out onto the counter, one of the brushes was out of position, I put it back into position and tested it with a 9 volt battery and it moved out of position again, so I pulled the brushes and it was black in there, so I cleaned it up with electrical spray and air and looked inside where the brushes rest on the shaft, at first I could not see an issue, I turned the motor and seen the issue, it appears that on the motor shaft is an hour glass shaped outer sleeve, I expect it is shaped like that to keep the brushes centered, well a large piece on one side was gone slightly more than half way up the hour glass shape, this is why the brushes would move out of position when testing, the brush would drop into the hole where the metal was missing and then force the brush out of position, this locomotive has run hotter than the other one for a while now, hot enough that it would not start again after stopping the train, the other one would run but it could not move the train by itself, especially uphill where I stop the trains normally, in the past when I would pull it apart to clean it when it was being temperamental I would find this black angel hair looking material in the brush area and wrapped around the drive wheels(steam type locomotive), I would pull it completely apart and clean it up and all was good again.

    I have 2 of these 8800 locomotives but they are different, my original 8800 locomotive motor top is held on with screws and still works to this day, but this one I bought used the top is just pushed on two pins(they look plastic to me), I see this locomotive as parts now, it is easy to clean compared to my diesel locomotive, I can pull the 8800 locomotive almost completely apart, but I am starting to think they bare a lighter duty locomotive, and they are cheap used(under a $100.00), I need to decide if I will by another one or move on to another diesel type locomotive with pivoting trucks/drive axles, maybe I will buy both for fun and change between the two types if it gets boring, it just seems like it would be cheaper to buy another used 8800 locomotive instead of sending this one out to be rebuilt, but I would only buy the type that had screws holding the motor top on.

    Saturday and last night were great running the trains, I only used 2 circuits, circuit 3 had only a single engine(8800) and it did not run that smoothly(needs cleaned again), I might start thinking about my final crossing/track, filling holes/areas created by putting original train section in the middle of a larger table, and then painting everything, I will start looking for something I can use for trees if different sizes, houses/buildings, and anything else that will make it look proper, I suppose a theme needs to be thought about, maybe a Deadwood type theme, maybe a couple tunnel holes coming out of nowhere leading to my small town?
     
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  10. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    All I have done with this recently is play with it, nothing has been changed for a while although I do have plans.

    I did buy a Marklin 8874 diesel locomotive to replace Marklin 8800 steam locomotive, I have been using it(8800) on the third circuit and have gotten it as slow as the American diesel, but that American diesel sometimes stops at the crossing because of the dead spot, now what I call a dead spot may not be a dead spot at all, it might be the locomotive being lifted off the track from the plastic in the crossing being too high, fact is I am baffled by this, once warmed up I can hardly see the locomotive jump/wiggle/lose speed crossing the crossing, other times it has to be moving fast to get by it, I have used my box car with my finger and cheater glasses to push the box car across and I can find no issues with the crossing, it crosses smoothly, but the American diesel locomotive does not cross it smoothly in the straight section circuit, but my Marklin 8878 German locomotive crosses the crossing in the curved areas glass smooth without any hesitating at all at really slow speeds or medium speeds, fast speeds are not good in that area/section/circuit because it has sharp turns and a turnout that you can see in the first photo of my last post, sometimes it pulls the car in back of the locomotive off the track in the crossing and/or the turnout curves, I expect this happens because of the weight of the 3 other cars in back of the first car still being pulled uphill, it is actually quite a long train compared to my other trains/cars.

    The Marklin 8874 is supposed to arrive 3/11, the Marklin 8800 it is going to replace does alright when warmed up and turned around backwards, but it is not smooth at all going forwards, it changes speed and it jerks badly when changing speed and will not keep moving unless moving very fast, but turn it around and it is smooth again, my guess it has something to do with the brushes, when it surged like this before one of the brushes had gotten out of position(moved forward) and the brush was not on the shaft anymore, the copper piece the brush is mounted on was riding on the shaft, this is why I think it is a brush issue, same symptoms, maybe the brushes are worn out, it will be nice to have the other locomotive.

    I have a question about my Marklin 8878 locomotive, I have to turn the powerpack/speed controller past a 100 to get the locomotive to start moving, is this normal, I can slow it way down to a crawl after it is moving, but none of my other locomotives act this way, is it made this way?
     
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  11. sumgai

    sumgai TrainBoard Member

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    Since you bought the 8878 new and local, you should avail yourself of the dealer's expertise and bring it back to them for testing. Sleep easy, A new marklin loc has a 24 month warranty when purchased from a Marklin dealer. best in the business.
     
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  12. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    I have not had it that long and did not notice this happening until recently as I was used to turning the speed controller more than halfway to get anything moving, it happens exactly the same way every time, and it does not jump when it starts, it starts moving very smoothly and picks up speed evenly, I asked about it because I thought nit might be made that way.

    I will ask the vendor next time I am there, it really does not bother me that much, if I quickly get it going and back off right away it will literally crawl so slow it takes forever to get anywhere, like that guys train did that had 23 cars behind it and then the caboose(almost completely filled the oval track), that is too slow for me.
     
  13. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    I have said I have a dead spot in the crossing, I suppose I call it that because the train stops on it if the train is going to slow, it has always been a rough crossing although after a certain point it appeared to get smoother after the train gets warmed up, it would cross successfully at slower and slower speeds as time went by.

    I took a very close look at the crossing a couple days ago, I checked the rail levelness with a straight edge/level and realized that it was neither level or flat in the straight section(includes 4" to 6" on either side of the crossing), it had a high point upon entering the crossing, and past the high point it twisted a little, I found if I put the locomotive in just the right spot it would teeter totter slightly, this is the only bad spot left, I have taken care of all the rest and there were several.

    I took the exit section of track off(past the high point), one small piece actually fell apart, this track is glued down and it takes a hobby knife between the track and what it is glued to remove it, next I used the knife to release the track before the crossing(entrance) but I did not disconnect any of it, I then used shims to level the entrance out and I checked it with a straight edge, I made a new track piece out of flex track, made shims, used castle type tacks to hold everything in place, keep in mind that this area had to be raised because the track under it(lower level) did not have enough room for taller cars to get past it(specifically box cars and caboose), this was caused from me removing the center section from a smaller coffee table and putting it in a larger coffee table after I widened it, the first photo is of it cut in half after track was removed.

    [​IMG]

    The next photo is of the extra center section in place sitting in the coffee table.

    [​IMG]

    I made the center section the same height as the green lower level and connected them together, then cut a hole in the coffee table surface and dropped it in place.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Doing it this way created issues with upper and lower levels, I had to recreate new track to connect the tracks back together, curves did not align so areas had to be re-designed, track that once was in a tunnel had the plywood used to make the tunnel removed, and new plywood had to be created for the upper track levels to cross the new section in the middle, this is why a few cars would get stuck and why the crossing area was a high spot, I also decided I did not like tunnels as this coffee table arrangement was not removable from the coffee table to fish the derailed train out of areas one cannot even see the train let alone get to the locomotive/cars, I think this is a very complicated arrangement now.

    Once I finished everything in the crossing area and everything was level I hoped the curved section of the crossing still worked like it did before, it almost did, before I could get the locomotive and four passenger cars up and over the crossing and then around the curve at certain speeds(100 to 120 on the powerpack/speed controller), any slower it would pull the first car sideways onto the other circuit in the crossing or it would de-rail that first car after the crossing in the curve, now with 4 long passenger cars it pulled the first car off the rail in the curve every time, 3 passenger cars I have no issue, but the 4 cars there is still too much of the last two cars being pulled uphill and the first car de-rails, I added too much weight to the front of the first car over that front axle and it would not make it up the hill, I finally found the right weight so it would make it up the hill and it only made the curve 50 percent of the time at any speed, so it appears 3 cars is it(it is still long) for now.

    This is one of the successful times it made it thru the curve, them last two cars are still being pulled up the hill while the locomotive is entering the turnout or turn in if that is what it is called.

    upload_2024-3-11_15-34-14.jpeg

    As for the straight section of the other circuit it is very close to smooth and there is no hesitation at all unless I try going less than 70 on the powerpack/speed controller which is almost crawling, I am able to get thru the crossing slower than I ever have before on both circuits, but mainly the straight circuit which was the issue all along.

    This was a success for me.
     
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  14. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    Before I could not get the locomotive and 4 long cars reliably thru that curve, last night set up exactly the same it made that hill/curve for an hour without an issue.

    The locomotive(8874) I bought on ebay arrived yesterday while I was at the library on my computer, I thought what I bought was a different locomotive with different colors, it is exactly the same as my other locomotive(8878), they work exactly the same way also, so what I asked about before has been answered, my new one and the used one do not move until the speed controller reaches a certain point and then it starts gaining speed at a steady rate if you leave the speed controller in the position when it started moving(it does not jump), if I do not want it going that fast I back off the moment it starts moving.

    With all the locomotives being reliable now it is getting boring so I look for things to fix, I had a curved turnout that below a certain speed the American diesel locomotive hesitated exiting the curve, I was scraping on a dirty little piece of metal and the locomotive hit my scraper which moved the scraper which lifted the end of that narrow piece of metal out of the curved section and the locomotive hit the little piece of metal and pushed it up past 90 degrees, the end that lifted out has a hook on the end to hold it in position, but that piece of metal bowed effectively shortening it and the hook came out of the hole it was in(key hole type hole), it bent the flat part up a little but I was able to bow it and get the hook back in the hole, it almost completely sprung back to the flat piece it is supposed to be, I finished cleaning it of dirt and it has never worked better, no more hesitating at all, I suppose I should have stopped the train before messing with the turnout.

    The turnout mentioned above is going to be removed and a curved piece of track is going to replace it, the other turn back in is going to be used, I removed the other turnout on the upper level in that corner also separating that end of the outer track that will end up at that turn in on the lower level, I am creating one more interesting track section like the crossing I reworked as I never use that section of track, that new interesting track section will start at the other crossing which will be removed and be replace with a turn in isolating that track section completely from one corner diagonally to the other corner, the train will move the opposite direction than it does on the inside, it will have one crossing near the turn in, the other crossing I planned I am uncertain about at this time(height issue), circuit 3 crosses circuit 2 already, circuit 1 will also cross circuit 2 on the lower level near the turn in, I just do not like getting bored.

    The upper right turn in that the green locomotive is pointed at has been removed freeing the track above it from that circuit, the turnout inside and below it is also being removed, the crossing at the center bottom is being replaced with a turn in freeing the outside right track from the circuit on that corner.
    upload_2024-3-12_15-54-44.jpeg
     
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  15. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    I have a question, did Marklin ever make a Z scale 90 degree crossing?
     
  16. Vern

    Vern TrainBoard Member

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    No.
     
  17. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    Last night I did this, it was this.

    upload_2024-3-13_16-25-19.jpeg

    Now it is this, that train in the photo is passing by.

    upload_2024-3-13_16-26-30.jpeg

    I never used that other track anyway as if I accidently got onto it the train would immediately stop/stall from dirty track?

    I am trying to decide on where to turnout of circuit one, one way is easy but a lot of the existing track gets unused, the other way is harder(steeper grade) but easier to do but almost all of circuit one continues to be used, it just makes that circuit a lot longer, I expect I will go with the larger circuit as more time between possible crashes. :LOL:
     
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  18. Wayno

    Wayno TrainBoard Member

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    I am new to the Z scale train hobby, I made a small coffee table train for my dad in 2005, I inherited it when he passed away and it was in my closet for around 15 years, I am sorry if I am asking stupid questions, but are "bell shaped armature" motors better than what I have now?

    I am stalled right now waiting for Z scale crossings to show up at the local hobby shops.
     
  19. tiestvangool

    tiestvangool TrainBoard Member

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    Wayno - no such thing as a stupid question always remember that.
    I don't know the answer either so learning the same as you! -T
     
  20. rray

    rray Staff Member

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    I don't know either. I seen that listed on one of the train shop sites, but as far as I know the newest motors are Can motors, which look more like a can than a bell.

    Also, as far as I know there were only 3 motor revisions released. The 3 pole, the 5 pole, and the Can motors. Now one of the locomotives described as having the newer "Bell Shaped Armature" is the latest Christmas Express 4-6-0. I do not however have one, so I couldn't comment.
     
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