What did I suggest to any of you that read this post? Be creative and not try to copy another persons work? To actually be creative and use your minds? No wonder some people never bother to say anything in a post, when they get attacked, it makes it not worth it. No matter what another person says about someone that that modeler likes, its not gonna change the way they think about them, and it wasnt meant to . The comments were meant to make you examine the way you do things and how creative you are. Would you really be happy with copying any of his work? If you thought soemthing should be different, would you hesitate to do it? All the people that examine anothers modelling abilities, should only use it as a influence, not worshipping. You guys are falling all over yourselves over him. I personally don't care for the road he models as my reason for not liking his work. His scenery work is good, but how hard is it to model desert regions and a canyon? So, now because I don't care for Union Pacific, that makes me what? opinionated? Do you have any rail roads that you would like to have seen make it to this century without being swallowed up? I live in the south and like SRR, CoG, SCL/FL, and A&WP to name a few, but they long ago disappeared. It doesnt stop me from putting a SRR boxcar into the mix, or running a pair of patched SCL/FL sd40-2's as lease units for my private road. I'm just saying, you neeed to be more imaginative, afterall, its that that will take you further with your modelling than copying another person.
Your statement of " You people need to broaden your modeling input to more than just Model Railroader" contradicts itself, since obviously if all 'us people' only used MR for our modeling input we wouldn't be on modeling forums such as this one. You mention Eric Brooman and John Allen as modelers you like. I also like their work. However you seem to think anyone who models the protoype instead of freelancing/proto-freelancing isn't being creative. Anybody can create a make believe layout based on what they invision in their mind. However it takes more modeling skills to faithfully approach modeling what was or is in the real world. Duane Goodman
Yes. Creative is one of those heavily used words that actually means two quite different things - usually at the same time Simply it means to make something - I can put powder, milk and water in a mug and 'create' coffee. Then there is the 'artistic' create, sometimes referred to as creativity, which is the generation of original ideas. An artist is usually creative in both ways. A totally prototype modeller (somewhat like Tony Koester in his latest project) could be classed as not using any creativity as he isn't generating new ideas - just copying a prototype but smaller. But he is creating a lot of stuff through building specific structures, etc. Maybe Pelle Soeberg also fits in this category, and that is what thoroughbreed is pointing to. Buying a trainset and running it round on the floor could be seen as neither creative or creative. The rest of us are for the most part only a bit creative or creative in our hobby, since we both use a lot of existing ideas and buy a lot of ready made stuff Does it really matter? No - we all (should) model what we like to see. Being made to feel guilty about not being one or the other kind of creative is a sure way to be disillusioned with MRRing and give it up.
Hmmmmm..... For hundreds of years, aspiring artists in Europe traveled to Italy to visit Florence, Rome, Venice, etc. to view the work from previous, "Masters" and copy their work. This was done both as a rote learning exercise, as well as to examine how these, "Masters" thought and how they solved artistic problems. For it was known, you could look at a painting and gather some information, but to truly understand it, you had to try it. You could then compare the answers you came up with to what a respected professional had devised. You would experience the same problems and issues they did, you could see that was appeared so easy and straightforward was in fact difficult and convoluted. You would also learn that respected, "Masters" sometimes flew by the seat of their pants, and "fudged it" to make it work. From Ruebens, to Ingres to even most Impressionists and most art students today, this process still holds true. And yet, no one would with knowledge of art history would confuse Ruebens (or his later desciple Delacroix) with Ingres, or the Impressionists with any of these three. They learned and applied what they learned, or rebelled against it. Such is the history of human development. To use the knowledge acquired by Pelle, or any others (Allen, etc.) shows a bit of common sense, in my book. I learned how to paint very effective backgrounds from Pelle in a simple article he penned for MR. Prior to that, I had experimented several times on my own, with only mediocre results. I group this into the, "hire a professional to get professional results, and watch them and learn how" theory. That doesn't mean I will follow anything he does or anything he says as gospel. That being said, I did cancel my MR subscription because I grew tired of paying what I did to get the same 3 writers every month. Towards the end I was fighting unhealthy thoughts of bludgeoning Ian Rice with a Proto 87 hammer, "See the narrow cross-section, Ian?!!!!!". In short, to borrow a quote from Digital Underground....doowatchulike..... -Mark
I noticed in the latest Model Railroader a full page add for a new book by Pelle titled Done in a Day. This probably features a collection of quick-hitting projects such as his recent covered hopper weathering project featured in MR. I don't buy too many books but may have to check this one out. Jamie
I like Pelle's Layout, because he has the same Layout goals as I do (Though I don't have the same amount of space as he does. I'm not all that impressed with his color pallete choices. Everything skews to Yellow to my eye. I think he methods are interesting and informative and I think he has a lot to offer. The other contemporary modeler that I'm a big fan of is Joe Fugate. He has some excellent ideas on scenery and I think he's a little better than Pelle at getting color temp and pallete right though I don't agree with his lighting methods.
Don't forget Pelle models the Tehachapi areas of central California which are in fact predominately dry yellows while Joe models central Oregon which is predominately lush greens. Both great model railroads IMO. I am hoping I can get just a bit of their talent to rub off me by immersing myself in their education materials. Jamie
Ugh, that blogthis thing completely throws me. Actually, he models Mojave which is the southern end of Tehachapi and Donner Pass which is much further north in the Sierras. It's the Donner pass area which I think he doesn't have quite right. The Mojave scenes are almost spot on.
Why is that? If you judge my work to be of lesser quality than his, does that make my opinion less valid? Or, if you find it superior, does that then validate my opinion?
Well to each thier own. I think oh that is neat, the more I look at my work and compare it to others I realize I am so so, but not Soeberg, Daneman or many on TB! Wonderful work here!
Midnight!!! Did you really write that? :thumbs_up: Please don't take this as a snide remark, or as a back-handed compliment, but you sound just like me!! You noticed that the previous remark constituted an error in logic (fallacy of relevance) and asked the perfect series of questions in response. Not too shabby....:tb-biggrin:
Actually you can always tell who the superior modelers are by the fact that they don't criticize or look down on others modeling. Duane Goodman
Can modeling a prototype be creative? Yes Of course that's correct, but I don't think it follows that you have to freelance in order to be creative. There's creativity in an artist's ability to make us look at familiar or everyday things in a new way. To me, this type of creativity is evident in Pelle's treatment of Mohave, Calif., in his first book, Mountain to Desert. He models the town almost as if he were an anthropologist, showing us the people -- how they dress, how they interact with each other, what goes on -- with amusement, interest, and genuine affection. I remember thinking that, were I driving through there, I would probably have regarded the town as just another boring collection of gas stations and hamburger joints. Pelle seems to be saying, "Wait! Look! You're missing something!" Here's another example. On the N scale forum, there's a thread titled "The central VA door layout progress" featuring the work of Envirodude, who is, I believe, a high school student. He's not modeling anything special, really -- ditches, a hillside, a right-of-way. But he understands nature -- and then shows it to us, saying, in effect, "See?" Yes, is my reply, after picking myself up off the floor. (Visit the thread, and you'll see what I mean.) --Bryan
So, what, then--superior modelers think everybody's work is equally just swell? Bull. Everyone has an opinion.
I'm going to chime in here before this gets locked. First of all this thread was almost a year old when someone asks to see Midnight Railroaders work and not 30 minutes later he responds with another of his know it all answers. What are the odds? I like to stir it up too but I don't criticize like he does. If you read through some of his old posts, you would think he wants you to think he is ''The worlds best Model Railroader''. I always say if you got such a great layout lets see some pics otherwise STFU. BTW the link to the museum layout or whatever in your signature is expired. Lame.
Regardless of what you may think of Midnight's personality, the retorts to him to put up or shut up are what are called fallacies of relevance in formal logic. They attempt to deflect the argument to the person, or literally to the man. The fallacy has a name in formal logic, and that name is "agrumentum ad hominem". In this case, it is of a type of ad hominem called "circumstantial", in that his circumstances in the hobby may render his opinion in valid. If that were the case, then the public should never be invited to critique art because they can't really appreciate it. See what I mean? His opinion is just that, an opinion. If he backs it up with some premises or apparent fact, then those can indeed be discussed and refuted/disproven as the contrarians can. It would be better if people continue to attempt to refute him by disproving the premise(s) upon which his argument(s) are based. If it comes to the point where he is plugging his ears and going "Naah naaah..." then we can just walk away and let him have benefit of his illusions. None of us need this. It's only his opinions after all, and we don't have to fall asleep at night with them between our own ears. Let them be his limits to the hobby and its practitioners, not ours.
All I'm saying is that he should post up some pics of his ''#1 layout of all time'' or just shut his pie hole.
Actually, he really should not. What his own capabilities in the hobby may be are irrelevant. We're not discussing his occupation, his musicality, his hair colour, his soldering technique....nothing about him is relevant except as it pertains to the argument he offers us. If his argument is that his modelling is superior, then let us be the judge. But he offers no such argument. He merely says that in his opinion...in his opinion...there are much more creative or better modellers out there. Really, what is the point in arguing that? He might just as well have said, "There is no one as good as Pelle." What would that mean to us, except that he feels Pelle is peerless. I would counsel those who would disagree to come up with reasoned debate about Pelle's ability, and not say to Midnight, "Well, you solder left-handed, so what do you know?" Do you follow? Midnight is not the subject of debate...it's Pelle. Let Midnight tell us that Pelle sharpens custom made knives in the wee hours of the morning while watching reruns of CSI. Does that make Pelle less of a modeller, and if so, why? Is Midnight's ability to model relevant to his opinion? No. His opinion is as good as Pelle's and yours and mine. I agree that his opinion might be hard to defend...or at least it would be for you and me because we admire what Pelle is capable of rendering, and we know that we would have to work hard to emulate him. But both of us could just as easily side with Midnight and say that George Selios is much better. It would be our choice in modelling guru because that person's work appeals to us. Pelle's doesn't apparently work for Midnight. At the risk of beating this unfortunate horse to death, let me illustrate: In a round-table discussion on religion and science attended by the clergy and scientists, a priest gains attention and states that the Sun is a gaseous orb in hydrostatic equilibrium caused by gravitation that converts atomic hydrogen nuclei to helium via the proton-proton chain reaction. An astrophysicist, harrumphes, and looking dourly over his glasses as the priest, asks, "Father, are you by any chance the holder of a PhD in astrophysics?" The priest blinks, and says, "No." With a withering look, the scientist says, "Why not leave the physics to those of us who do?" That sounds like a marvellous put down, and a good put-in-place. When the priest has the credentials, he can talk physics- is the message. Except for one niggling little problem. The priest was perfectly correct in what he said. The scientist who attempts to chide the priest did not refute what the priest had claimed...he introduced the circumstance that the priest held no formal training or experience, and that fact was enough to make his statement wrong or invalid. You should see that what the priest claims, and only what he claims, is either right or wrong...his priestliness was neither. It was irrelevant! I say leave him to his opinion, and don't drag his own modelling into the discussion because it is irrelevant.
Please, show me where I made the claim that I own such a layout. You can't, because I didn't. What you're doing here is suggesting that I can't express an opinion unless you approve of it. Not sure why you want to make personal attacks on me just because we don't agree, but it is totally unnecessary. Would you prefer that we all agree on everything? By the way, ref your comment about my initial response, you do realize this board offers email notification, right?
