Hey, not to bring anybody down, but come on. We as modelers we want better quality models, well, it costs manufacturers $$$$ to produce it first. I read somewhere that it can cost as much as $150,000 to design and build a working pre-production model, BEFORE it even hits the market! I too think that SOME prices are a lil' high, BUT, everything else in the world is going up too. The details are getting better. Today is THE perfect time to be modeling, the industry is at it's best in terms of availibilty for things. I model the N&W, ten years ago there wasn't near the amount of rolling stock and locos available. Look at Kadee's PS-1 boxcars, $30. a pop, quality, No. 1. Nuff said.
Jeff, DFM and DFA has ruined our hobby! Designed For Manufacture, and Designed For Assembly came about as the means of producing high volumn products that are cheaper to produce assembled, than in kits. We did that by injection molding to eliminate screws. Now days, everything "snaps" together. Now we have to run it out of the box, no craftsmanship, no parts to 'kit bash' a different engine. We lost quality, and emagination, for a cheap toy that the manufacturers have been educating you to believe for years, is the right way to go so they came make the huge profits of today. Your engines you are paying big bucks for are put together by poor kids in China and Slovenia that could care less if your engine runs or not. Check into it! 50 years ago, freight and engine trucks were flexible, mounted on REAL springs that followed the track and never derailed on turnouts or dips in track, and were ALL metal. ALL wheels were precision turned brass mounted to gauge on tool steel axles and would coast down a half percent grade, some even less. The engines were ALL metal and heavy enough to pull without having to have rubber bands on the wheels. They could spin their wheels starting a heavy load just like the real engines did. These cheapo plastic toys of today promptly burn out their motors if stalled a few seconds, because they can't spin their wheels! Because the articulated engines had two motors, the front set of drivers would spin before the rear set would, just like the real ones. Today, both sets are geared to one motor. And another thing, today's mallets have BOTH sets of drivers pivoted so they will go around the unrealisticly tight 18" radius curved toy track. Today's engines cost so much because they are plastic, and injection molds and the presses to run them are far more expensive than stamping presses we used to have. In fact I once got a $5.00 an HOUR raise when I was promoted from a tool and die maker to a mold base insert maker, and that was 50 years ago! Figure what that raise would be at today's prices! If all you are judging is looks, today's engines look better, but if you want to operate, I'll out pull any new engine of today with an old Varney articulated if you have track strong enough to hold it up! You couldn't run a 5 pound engine on foam very long, but it will pull every car you got and probably more. Are you willing to buy an 8 year old a $575.00 2-6-6-6 engine to "play with"? Only the wealthy do that. Most kids can't even think about a train hobby because the industry has gotten greedy for profit, and care only for what they can sell you. Old Josh Cowen is probably rolling over in his grave right now about how his ideal of his trains creating a bond between father and son hobby has degenerated into pure profit driven enterprise!
I'm old enough to remember the "good ole days" of the seventies. We had cheep plastic dteemers that wouldn't run, Tyco CRA^^^, Mantua garbage,and MDC or Bowser kits that ran well IF put together properly. For one I wouldnt trade todays steam for any of them!! Sorry to disagree with you Watash, but I believe that the locos of today (talking about Bachman, P2K, and Athern) are better designed, better running models than we had 30 years ago. Evan Rivrossi looks like they are commong arround. Sure they arent as heavy as Bowsers, but they run better, and are much quieter. If I want to pull more cars, I'll just add another loco. None of the locos I own have traction tires, and they have all put in many hours of continus opperation without ANY problems. I wont get into the cheep foreign labor issue, we ALL buy things made that way weather we realise it or not. Respectfully....Mike Chamberlain
<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jeff Lisowski: Hey, not to bring anybody down, but come on. We as modelers we want better quality models, well, it costs manufacturers $$$$ to produce it first. I read somewhere that it can cost as much as $150,000 to design and build a working pre-production model, BEFORE it even hits the market! I too think that SOME prices are a lil' high, BUT, everything else in the world is going up too. The details are getting better. Today is THE perfect time to be modeling, the industry is at it's best in terms of availibilty for things. I model the N&W, ten years ago there wasn't near the amount of rolling stock and locos available. Look at Kadee's PS-1 boxcars, $30. a pop, quality, No. 1. Nuff said.<hr></blockquote> And as nice as they are, I'll let someone else "pop" for one, thanks I know it costs to manufacture model RR stuff, and I sure do know prices have gone up. Were I starting out, I'd go with Athearn and MDC with Atlas track- higher than it was when I got serious back in 1980, but still decent-running stuff. And, should I get even more into the hobby, I'd take a closer look at Walthers, Proto 1K and 2K, Intermountain, etc. My only beef with your argument, Jeff, is boosting Kadee and its pricey boxcars. As nice as they are, not everyone can afford them- which is why Athearn would be a better starting point, especially for folks with limited model RR funds. Some may scoff at Athearn's quality, but hey, they're fairly good-looking, and with a little modification, you can make 'em better. Watash ol' buddy, I'm not going into foreign labor a-tall That's a subject for another debate and another forum. For the record, I'm with you on that one...
Well, good response, that's what I was hoping to get. Very good points from all. Ah, the foreign trade issue...well, I'll leave my stance on the U.S. government out of this forum. Regarding Kadee's boxcars, I never said I owned one. But, they sure do LOOK and OPERATE well. I'm just in the opinion that things are looking up in this industry as far as prototypicality goes. (whew)You can't argue that point.Look how much is available today that is more correct than even ten years ago. Hey, I like Athearn by the way, I've got a whole mess of the Heavyweight coaches. Sure they're not to scale, a little short, but easy to build a small fleet of them. Plus they're cheap. I like whatever I can afford at the time I go shopping. I saw a neat Walther's Dynameter car that was $32.00, a little pricey, but I want it, so I may invest in it. One more reason to go to train shows. I picked up a couple new Rivarossi Y6Bs at a show for $150 a pop. Not bad considering list is well over $200. But in the long run...to each his own. Happy modeling y'all!
I bought a Rivarossi HO Big Boy back in April and it sold for $200, it was originally worth about $350. Good steal if ya ask me! And this is the year to stock up or buy new engines!
Everybody be sure to go to college, and make big big bucks, because you are going to need it. I quit making custom made engines because you guys acted like I should make your engine for the same price you could buy a cheap plastic toy one for. This was before BRASS came along. Advertizing made BRASS out to be more holy than GOD, so you gladly pay for it. It isn't as "good" as mine was for several reasons, mine ran and didn't derail or burn up motors. Slowly starting in the late fourties the manufacturers started telling you plastic was "better" than metal, and you bought right into it. They made great huge flanges like a Lionel, so it had some chance of staying on a track, and called it "Scale", when we had more closely to scale flanges before. Both Mantua and Varney had nice flanges that didn't bump over frogs before we could get the NMRA to even listen to us. But when it became the NMRA's big brainstorm to "Standardize" flange sizes, it suddenly became the exact same size and thickness we had been trying to tell them all along. It just hat to be their idea is all. Now the NMRA takes the credit for our idea and calls it the RP-25 Standard. Bet you didn't know that either! It really pays to be wealthy, so make the big bucks guys, it all depends upon it! Nothing else seems to matter. It is like the Communists said: "Start teaching the little kids, and when they grow up, they will believe it is the truth!" Just make me some spare parts available and I'll go crawl back in my cave and hibernate! Enjoy the plastic!
I really don't think education plays any role in buying models. Like i said before, I buy what I can afford, if reasonable. Train shows are great for this. Those guys unload all their stuff on the last day. Bachmann Spectrum series mountains were going for $50 bucks, new! Hey, I don't know about you, but my PLASTIC mountain runs AND looks good. Great starting point for N&W K2 and K2A class engines. Brass is nice also, I don't own any yet. But, if I want it then I'll budget for it. That's the key, saving or buying when you can afford things.
I'm just an apprentice modeler and behind on the learning curve. I own 10-HO Kadee box cars and thought they were the cream of the crop, until I bot the new Atlas ACF pressureaide freight cars. The Atlas model looks better than the picture in MR,superbly detailed/painted,screw mounts and the wheels sets finger spin 5 seconds longer than the Kadees and all this for $17.00 to $19.00 bucks.
I don't cry... I just don't buy. When a manufacturer doubles his prices in less that 5 years (gee, I wish my pay did that) with no signifigant increase in quality, and sometimes even a decline... why buy that? When a manufacturer expects you to plunk down your dollars for a model site unseen or don't get one... why buy that? When a manufacturer makes a product that is a total dog, just because they didn't do their market research and raises the price on the next release to "cover increased costs"... why buy that? We, the consumer, speak with our wallets. The way to combat increased prices on anything is don't buy it. [ 26 July 2001: Message edited by: foamrr ]</p>
Well I agree. I mean it's simple, don't buy if you don't like the prices... Where in So Cal are you from there Foamer? I used to live in Long Beach and Oceanside.
WE USED TO RIDE HORSES IN AUSTRALIA TOO ! For the record, KATO workers recieve the same wages as we do in our so called civilised world. Doug Jaeger
I still rather have ONE six pound big boy then five Rivars....yes, they are all good locomotives, but tell someone outside of the circles that it is REAL...not light plastic...it really brings them to attention.
Doug, I talked to a buyer who just got back from China. He said they are very cagey about everything over there, but pumped him pretty heavy about how we made things over here. He said some of the assembly people were now being paid as high as 70 cents an hour, instead of by the number of pieces. They have been running their injection molding machines 24 hours a day, and bragged that every boiler that came off each shot only cost them 32 cents, because they now had 6 cavities. So they make a whopping 1.92 per shot. (that engine sells for around 125.oo each here. Pretty good profit.
