Being finally able to run my Blackstone units on a small permanent layout, some engines have actually run for the first time. So it's only now that I have run sound equipped units. I bought those not for their sound, but for the fact that no non-sound units were available. Two problems arise here on my straight analog DC powered layout. For one, the sound equipped engines run only at a rather high setting of the power pack. Thus, the desired double-heading of a sound equipped and a straight analog DC model is a rather odd looking venture. The analog engine's wheels are spinning long before the DCC model even starts. And the same discrepancy in wheel speed exists up to the maximum speed setting. A second problem shows when running the DCC model on its own. First, it takes a lot of power to get it started, but then there is virtually no slow speed possibility. Once the engine runs, it is going fairly fast right away. How one would succeed to do yard work under these conditions eludes me. I have a Bachmann On30 2-6-6-2 model that is also Tsunami equipped. And in that engine, it is easily possible to run it at all desired speeds, in fact, it is a real joy! So how come, my Blackstone models behave so differently? Is there a way to change the setting on the decoder even though I have no DCC power packs? Actually, it would be even better if I could turn off the sound completely. The Bachmann On30 train runs on my fairly large HO layout. So there is variation and a not always equally loud sound. I like the sound on that engine. Though in part because I don't run it that often. With my Blackstone engines, however, the sound is too loud for my small layout, and it is always the same. This, to me, becomes annoying instead of enjoyable within just a few minutes. So, I would be best served if I could disconnect the sound completely, preferably combined with reverting to running characteristics like my straight DC models. Any suggestions/help? Thanks.
No way am I going to invest into this. I need to cut down not to expand; even more so since I'm not all that convinced about the benefits to me. I can see them for larger layouts, though. But for me, it would mainly be a way to reduce the unwanted (most of the time) sound. If Blackstone keeps producing sound-only engines in the future, I may well no longer buy their engines.
I think it is very much the opposite. I have lots of straight DC locomotives plus galloping geese, but only two locomotives with DCC. And all those DC ones would either be relegated to the display shelf where they had been sitting for all too long. Or else, I'd be forced to have them converted to DCC which would be way over a "small investment". It's not just that DCC system that costs. And the alternative of two different layouts, one DC, one DCC also does not fit the bill. In fact, I'll probably cancel my preorders of a K-28 and a K-36. Those would be DCC number three and four. But with the DC running characteristics experienced so far with my two DCC models, I could foresee them being on the display shelf mostly. However, I already have a K-28 that I had bought for display only as it has great weathering but is defective regarding running possibilities. And a K-37 essentially takes the display space for the K-36. Again, it's beautifully weathered, much better than the Blackstone factory weathering can be. So in essence then, if I buy Blackstone's K-28 and K-36, they will be bought to run. Hope BS will issue DC models in the future at least. Though the wait for decent runners of the larger Mikados has already been a very long one. And I'm not getting any younger. Oh well, I fortunately had bought some MMI On3 models when they came out. So there is some Mikado action to see anyway. It's just that I can't run those on a permanent layout.
"In fact, I'll probably cancel my preorders of a K-28 and a K-36." Isn't this like cutting off your nose to spite your face?
Since you want to run the DCC/sound equipped locos on DC and not have sound nor want to buy a DCC system then I might suggest that you take the locos to someone who KNOWS how to program DCC locos and get them to turn off the noise and maybe set the speed parameters to suit your DC operation. Otherwise, get out your soldering iron and magnifying glasses and convert the locos to non DCC/sound. It isn't as hard as you might think but you will be voiding any warranty and if you don't know what you're doing then...all bets are off. Yes, I too wonder since you have invested all this money in Blackstone HOn3 locos why you wouldn't spend a bit more on a DCC system. Woodie-the devil's advocate
I'm afraid my knowledge in electronics is not very good. One reason why I am shying away from DCC. My idea of model railroading is to have something I can work on myself and not have someone do lots of things for me. Additionally, I live in Switzerland where the chances of getting help for North American models are very thin. If I could find some decent instructions, I might give it a try myself, though. It's not warranties I'm wooried about. Those have limited value for me here anyway, due to the high shipping costs plus customs complications when things need to go back and forth across the pond. My investing in Blackstone locos has decidedly been in non-sound equipment. Only when some very desirable items were available in sound only did I succumb to the pied pipers' promises who claimed the DCC models were running without major problems on DC. So in a way I feel cheated by non-serious info policies. And I still don't see how you guys can say it's a small investment to get into DCC when one has so much DC stuff. I would not mind getting some DCC equipment if that would allow me to operate my sound units with straight DC characteristics. At this point I guess, I'm just no longer believing in the sales pitches.
Problems Running Blackstone Locos on DC Hi swissboy, I think maybe most of your problems with your Blackstone locos on DC may be the fact that they are optimized for DCC operation, since I'm pretty sure that's how most most of them will be used. It seems logical that if your Bachmann On30 locos are running well enough on DC to satisfy you, then probably the Blackstone locos should be able to be fine tuned for better operation on DC, as well. The down side is that you'd probably need someone with a DCC system to help you accomplish it, but I'm sure if you were to contact Soundtraxx/Blackstone they could advise you about this. However, if you are trying to run the Blackstones double headed with HOn3 brass models that were made 20-30 years ago, that may be a large part of your problem. My own experience with brass (especially HOn3), is that the mechanisms are severely lacking compared with modern production units. You even hinted at this fact in one of your posts about the weathered model that is for display only. Have you tried running your Blackstone locos together, rather than with one of your brass locos? It also sounds like you only recently have had a layout to run your locos on, do all of your older HOn3 locos run satisfactorily? You can get a basic entry level DCC controller to run your Blackstone locos for about $150, about a third of the price of one of the Blackstone locos. In your location, I would look into the soon to be released Lenz StartSet01, which looks promising, but I wouldn't rule out the NCE PowerCab, NCE DCC Twin, or Digitrax Zephyr, all of which can be found for well under $200. Do you remember the price of the old PFM and PBL sound systems? They make DCC look like a real bargain! Having run using both DC and DCC (and PFM sound), I would have to say that I like the benefits of DCC (like sound and individual control in the same block) much better than DC, but you are correct, there is a learning curve to DCC, and DC is hard to beat in terms of plain simplicity. Sound/DCC is also more sensitive to dirty track and short circuit problems than DC. I like the capability of sound with DCC, and when I tire of the noise, I can easily hit the mute button and give my ears a rest. I can understand resisting DCC because of it's learning curve, and not wanting to pay for sound if you don't want it, and also not wanting to convert a large collection of brass locos to operate on DCC, but do you really want to stay with the limitations (no sound, block wiring, etc) of straight DC? Bill in FtL
Cut it out. I used to advise all sorts of folks before plug-and-pray how to install dcc. basic..2 wires track, 2 wires motor, wires for headlamps. Reverse it. I've used dcc, but will never own any of it, full stop. My 0 has Marn-o-Stats, so power isn't an issue. We ran into that with Botch 3-truck Shays in Large Scale. Has a quasi-Tsunami, built by Soundtraxx to Botch specs. 8 volts to start it. A non-dcc-equipped unit placed 4 feet behind it would ram it before it ever started moving. We just gutted the units out and connected direct. Can't adjust volume, starting speed, trigger any sounds without dcc. Not. Interested. When manufacturers start mandating what we can and cannot have in our equipment, I either don't buy it or figure out how to fix it. Sorta like Windoze 8. I got stuck with that pile of dung....found Start8 and it looks and works like XP now. Should not be hard to do, just take photos, make wiring diagrams, and remove it. LED's will need 500-1K ohm resistors for current limiting. Save the parts and drawings for the next owner..he may want it. Remember..it's your railroad, your equipment. I was advised almost 40 years ago...never modify your lifestyle to suit your house. Modify your house to suit your lifestyle. With the move of radio/battery into small scales, it would not surprise me that dcc will not be the premier nmra-pushed operating system in 10 years it is now.
Wow-you dare mention radio control...beware of townsfolk with pitchforks and torches coming for you! Actually, yes, I would take the dcc stuff out and wire the motor directly to the track pickups. Then maybe later you can get rid of the track pickups and wire the motor directly to an r/c board & battery. I know it would work, the Brits are doing r/c in OO9 (HOn30) locos right now. Woodie
Thank you all for your most interesting replies and advice. I'd just like to clarify a few things. - The double heading I had attempted was between two Blackstone engines, one with DCC and sound, the other one straight DC. My only two brass models are those I had mentioned as being intended strictly for display. So I'm not bothered with old stuff in this particular case. - Nevertheless, some of the early Blackstone K-27s are not running optimally. It's that old drive and motor assembly that keeps causing problems even without going out of order. But the only one where I have received a new motor for has been left disassembled for several years. So I'll have to takle that first, before I go after the others. - I'm one who specifically loves the DC (and AC) simplicity because I want to spend my money on models that I like to look at and not on expensive technical features that I don't really need. Most of the time, these models just grace the display shelves anyway. So a simple "inside" does not matter in the first place. When I just think of all the technical systems that passed through while I have been running my trains over the many years. I could have spent a fortune for many of those systems. On the other hand, I can still run trains I bought 30 or more years ago. Just without the features many love, but I can very well do without. In fact it gives me great satisfaction that (on another scale) my grandchildren can play with the simple LGB/Playmobil G scale trains and the HO AC Marklin engines my children grew up with. Sure that's kids' stuff, but my own old engines from that time also run just as well. So in a way, I think ScaleCraft is exactly hitting the point with the advice to "...never modify your lifestyle to suit your house. Modify your house to suit your lifestyle." My lifestile is to try to do with as much independence from technical extras as I want. That's not to say I don't appeciate many technical inventions. But there are many others that I consider superfluous for my own needs. - In essence then, I really don't resist DCC because of the learning curve involved. It's interesting that you, Bill, mention block wiring at the end of your post. It may actually have been exactly the early attempts of block wiring that led to my present attitude. When I was a schoolboy, we had a decent (for that time) Marklin HO AC layout. Marklin then came up with a first set of signals that one could use to install a block system on the layout. My father was so interested in this new possibility that he bought the necessary stuff right away and installed it. But we kids quickly realized that he had taken all the fun out of the layout for us. Everything ran automatically, be were no longer able to do near crashes and whatever other things one tries out as a schoolboy. Control had simply been taken out of our hands. So yes, I love some limitations, because they give me other freedoms instead. One such thing is that I still do not own a TV, and I very rarely miss it. We had one decades ago when I won one. And it made us quickly aware of how we scheduled our activities after some sports events etc. So we were happy when it first lost its sound, and later quit working entirely. None of our three grown up kids' families have a TV either. Though that's easier today with the computer screens. I use that too, but I have better control of what I want to spend my time with there.
Hello Robert, Thanks for the clarification, I had mistakenly thought that you had a large collection of HOn3 brass, including galloping geese, and only two Blackstone Models. I'm not that familiar with the Blackstone DC only releases (in fact I had forgotten that Blackstone offered them). It is unlikely that a DCC loco could run with an otherwise identical non-DCC loco, because the controller and sound boards consume power, which makes the operational voltage different, as you have already discovered. Do you know if the B-S DC only models come equipped with a socket (and jumper plug) for the user to install his own DCC decoder? I believe the Con-Cor Galloping Geese came so equipped. I am also uncertain as to whether the sound equipped B-S locos have a similar socket, which would make removal of their DCC boards a lot easier. In any case, it seems as if your options are limited to either upgrading your non-DCC locos to have DCC decoders (you could still run them on DC if you prefer, but at least their performance would better match your B-S sound locos). If your locos do have the aforementioned sockets, this would be a relatively easy thing you could do yourself, and should be "plug and play". The cost could be relatively low as well, a decoder here can frequently be had for less than $15 (just be sure it's analog capable so you could run it on DC). Or, if your sound locos have the sockets (which I rather doubt, but it is possible) you could convert them to DC-only operation by removing the sound board and inserting a dummy plug in it's place, which again should be a relatively easy "plug & play" operation. The ease of all this depends mostly on whether or not many of your locos are equipped with the NMRA "DCC-Ready" sockets. Without these sockets, the same things could be done, it would just be more difficult to have to hard wire everything. Your other options would be to run your DCC locos separately from your non-DCC engines, either on DC or not. Or, you may be able to trade them off for similar, though non-DCC versions. At this point, if Blackstone doesn't offer new locomotive releases in DC only versions, staying with DC may mean that you are on a dead-end path if you are unwilling to make the changes to any future DCC/Sound locos to make them more compatible with your DC layout. I would suggest contacting Blackstone and letting Nancy and Steve know how important it is to you that they continue to offer DC-only versions of their new releases. Regards, Bill Nielsen in Ft. Lauderdale, FL
I have an answer. As a long-time Soundtraxx dealer (retired, still listed), I called them up. The sound decoders are PCB's in the tender. 4 screws to pull the shell, maybe 4 more hold the PCB down. Original shipments came DC PCB's, Soundtraxx pulled them and added sound decoders for orders. They have the DC PCB's. No soldering. Drop them in. PM me on this forum, I'll tell you how to get them. This allows you to convert, keep the parts for future sale of the locomotive or upgrading to full dcc on you system. Dave
That sounds like a good solution to the problem. Just curious, you say no soldering needed, does this mean that there's a plug/socket involved? If so, is it an NMRA 8 pin DCC socket? Bill in FtL
Bill, That's exactly what I do now. I run them separately. Though that was not my original idea. But at this point, that's the only way out. I definitely do not want to trade or any such thing. The market here would be way too thin for this. And trading with some fellows across the Atlantic would cost so much, as I had mentioned earlier. I'm pretty sure there are no sockets. I will most likely contact Blackstone at some point. But I'm fully aware that they started out from a sound producing company. So their idea is that we should all like and buy that in the first place. They used to emphasize that their engines are designed around the sound units. I'm not worried about staying on a dead-end path though. Since my retirement, my finances do no longer allow me to buy lots of engines. Thus, the incentives regarding getting on another path are rather low. I need a considerable amount for travels, so it's there where most of what's left goes these days. I have a total of 6 K-27 locos, and I'm sure I would have as many of the larger K's if they had come out while I was still working. At least if they'd been sold at comparable prices as what the K-27's cost then. But that does not worry me. I'm happy anyway with my present situation.
They told me spring contacts, not a plug-in nmra-style plug. Light lighting boards in H0 stuff, except no soldering, apparently. Best bet is to order the engines AND enough boards to do the new engines and the older ones he has, I'd guess. Dave
