DRGW Prospector questions

I think it's possible, at least, that F7s pulled the Prospector in this paint scheme, which must have been very short-lived. According to the (Rio Grande Diesel Paint Schemes:
<ul>
[*]The Prospector cars were first painted in the Grande Gold/silver/4-stripe scheme in March, 1950.
[*]The early F7s delivered during 1948-1950 had the black/yellow paint scheme.
[/list]

In the Otto Perry picture you included in your post, it looks like the motive power is an ABBA FT set...? Hard to tell. My guess is that they ran the earliest Prospector with FTs. At the time, the Rio Grande was using "covered wagons" -- F units -- for freight service, and given that the road was vertically challenged, they would have put the highest horsepower units (I believe) on fast freights.

BTW, here's a link to an Ebay auction -- it's a reproduction of a D&RGW painting showing new F7s in freight service.

Bryan

[ March 26, 2006, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Bryan ]

 

My first guess would be, yes!

Hemi,
As you might know the Prospector dates clear back to the steam era when it was all Pullman heavyweights in the traditional Green, pulled by all those nifty 2-8-2, 4-8-2 & 4-8-4's. The F7's were delivered in the 'Bumble Bee' Black and Yellow stripes, similar to the FT's. When the Grande got the smoothside cars delivered they painted them like the engines, black with yellow stripes. When the CZ came into being the WP developed the Orange and Silver scheme for their engines, the Grande wanted to have a similar look so they took the 'Grande Gold' color from the switchers and combined that with the Silver. They decided that 'Gold' and Silver engines pulling Black with Yellow striped cars wouldn't work so the Gold and Silver 4 stripe paint was used on all other passenger cars the Grande owned.

2slim

 

Prospector

Hemi,
I have the book, 'A Century of Passenger Trains on the Rio Grande' and if I recall there is a lot of good stuff in there. I also have the Morning Sun book Rio Grande Freight & Passenger Equipment in color. Not sure which book but I seem to recall seeing a picture of the 'failed' Prospector in one. The video 'Grande Gold', (Machines of Iron?) has some footage of the train exiting the Moffit Tunnel. That Prospector on Ebay may have been built using 'Union Station Products' car sides. They list several car sides for the Grande, (a bit pricey), probably would make into nice cars though. For me an N scale Prospector is too late for my era, now for my HO era I've been collecting the Walthers PS cars. Not exact but close enough for me.

2slim

 

Boy how Arvada's changed, couldn't even tell where that's at !

 

'A Century of Passenger Trains on the Rio Grande'

Hemi,
Go to 'Ron's Books' website, it's like $32 and some change, no bidding crap!

2slim

 

You can say that again...

Anyone that lives in the Denver Metro area has seen some major changes in the city after several years of massive growth. It's great to look at the Otto Perry collection and see all the changes he captured over the years.

:lightbulb: :lightbulb: :lightbulb: :lightbulb:

 

How's it feel to live in Colorado's NEWEST city

 

I posted some of the questions that have come up here to the D&RGW group over on Yahoo, and received the following reply from Jim Eager:

"The Prospector was reintroduced in 1945 as a heavyweight train. In
1947 the equipment was painted black with yellow stripes as per the
Otto Roach publicity photos and others. Cars so painted included
baggage-dorms, coaches, diners and Pullman sleepers. See Mike Davis' The Judge's Train in Colorado Rail Annual No.9 (CRRM) for the story
of the Prospector.

"The builder's photos [of the new streamlined Prospector cars] show the cars in Aspen Gold & silver, although with black trucks and underbody equipment, which were repainted silver after delivery."

I am pretty sure that the Otto Perry photograph (posted above) shows FTs pulling the heavyweight Prospector in the black/yellow scheme. There is a beautiful picture of the black/yellow heavyweights (with an FT pulling them) in Ross B. Genard, Rio Grande in Colorado, Volume I: Colorado (Edison, NJ: Morning Side Books, 1992), p. 96.

I'm hoping to model this in N scale, but I don't have the time to build the heavyweights from scratch - so I'll use the Rivarossi/Con-Cor heavyweights instead. They're AT&SF prototypes, apparently, and don't look all that much like most of the Rio Grande's heavyweights (many of which had been modified with air conditioning and sealed windows). Any suggestions?

--Bryan

 

Good question. My impression is that, if you want to go back to the 50s, the Microscale decals are too orange. It's more like yellow, back then. Perhaps it would be better to buy Microscale stripe decals (no road) in yellow...
--Bryan

 

Prospector questions [revised] +N photos

2slim seems to generalise below and the rashness of that has inaccuracies that need to be rebutted. Also the "this caused that" assumptions or statement of fact are misleading because 20/20 hindsight used interpolates decision making that had no (or little) bearing on the actions of the railroad of the day.

Modellers should note also that 'train' names, consists and equipment varied frequently and one should not assume that any particular part of this is constant and unchangeable. The 'Prospector' was at various times a railcar (Budd RDC); a heavyweight and streamlined/ lightweight passenger overnight service- and not in continuous years either!

1. The basic scheme was an EMD or an eastern road whose name escapes me, but was used by many roads in identical or with minor changes, supplemented in DRGW colors. That was Dulux Black and Imitation Gold Dulux (Ochre color or dull yellow if you wish). Numbering began with 540, changed later to 540 and1/4 (quarter- never seen a photo with this 'board' orif it was really applied as such); then 540A,B,C,D to post 1950 4-digit 5401-5404 for the same set of 'as delivered' grouped units called a 'locomotive'.

2. Um, no they werent. Not the "smoothside cars" by which we have to assume you mean the Pullman Lightweights, aluminium fluted design cars of 1950. Refer #4 below.

The Prospector "smoothside cars" you refer to are ex D&SL heavyweights, with 'as delivered' Harriman round roof profiles which were later UPGRADED with air-con, 'streamlined' skirts and single pane windows etc. These were the passenger fleet painted into Black and Imitation Gold Duco (yellow) in 1947 FOR THE EXPOSITION FLYER, a forties inter-railroad express (CBQ) that briefly reached SLC I think.

The group included the ex D&SL 61' Baggage-Express cars (6 wheel trucks) and 70' coaches (4 wheel), apparently only 8 cars in all. I have not seen any record of other DRGW equipment being painted these colors.

It appears (and this is conjecture) that the merged ex D&SL cars may have been prime candidates for upgrade or replacement and that was perhaps why only that group was affected/ used. The date of 1947 introduction coincides with the release from receivership of the DRGW itself.

3. Officially known as Orange Duco (Aspen Gold by D&RGW).
The two pair of 6000 hp Alco PA's originally designated for the CZ service were 'bumped' to use a vernacular term after they experienced inability to keep timetables and mechanical set backs- none of which I have seen documented that affected passenger services but may have been a 'mechanical' decision by 'Operations'.

Being replaced by F3's and F7's in 'full' loco sets with HEP steam assist cars and later years sometimes only 3 units.

4. Rubbish. The CZ was a Budd creation and all aluminium so there never was a conflict with "Gold' and Silver engines pulling Black with Yellow". The CZ ran from 1949.

After all B&Y units (with Yellow face variant intr. abt 1946) pulled the CZ so why should the reverse look bad (even if it had existed).

True the the Alco's were probably getting very dirty quickly what with so many tunnels to cope with and their own 'output' well known- so probably were brutes needing to be cleaned very well after each trip. But remember you are dealing with a business transporting people and using existing equipment- it was neither a whim nor easy to just repaint at the drop of the hat. So the color scheme itself did not lend to being a 'commercial' success when much effort had to go into keeping it tidy.

And the [post 1951/2 repaint] PA's in 4 stripe also did service back on the train as well.

By the time (1950) the PA's had been dropped as regular power on the CZ the previously planned Pullman lightweight fleet was being delivered in the NEW "4 stripe" Orange Duco (Aspen Gold) upper bodywork and Aluminum Duco lower bodywork scheme.

Loco sets were also painted or repainted to match this arrival- F7's being the first delivered in 4 stripe scheme. Note it sytarted part way thru the order- not the first F7's.

Now heres some photo's from Eddie in Australia:


...
regards,
dave
:shade:

 

I'd just like to say that my research confirms all of the points nd-rails made in the previous post.

Some pics:

PA-1 with Prospector heavyweights near Arvada, CO (April 5, 1948) - Otto Perry

The Prospector heavyweights were originally modified for use on the Exposition Flyer. Note that they are "modernized" with big picture windows, air conditioning, and streamlining.

 

I believe that would be the Boston & Maine? Pretty much the same scheme except brown and yellow IIRC.

I've always been curious what exact problems they experienced

Uh, weren't the CZ cars constructed of Stainless Steel? Not Aluminum?

I believe at least one set of PA's were fairly regular power until as late as 1958 according to photographic evidence.

 

The odd roof line was called "bread loaf". They were heavyweight cars made to look modern by a railroad with no money for new cars. Not bad for homebuilt.

The flying Rio Grande logo was created in an employee contest to provide a snappy logo for the headrest covers of the new light weight train. :teeth:


This pic is from the Royal gorge, but similar:
http://www.burnhamshops.com/drgw/drgw29.jpg