Howdy to all, I am new here and while looking at the electronics forum, I couldn't find any information or posts about using onboard batteries and radio control in model trains. I realize that large scale modelers have used this for years but most have never given this a thought in smaller (smaller than G, etc) scales. This is a viable option to both DC and DCC and requires no layout wiring to operate trains. There is interest in this subject and many modelers working on wireless layouts. No track cleaning, no wheel cleaning, no problems whatever-just running trains without programming or electronics degrees. If there is any interest here, maybe we can start a discussion. By the way, I run with r/c and just love it! Woodie
I have found that the majority of people that post here are either N or Z scale. However, I am surprised that some that model in HO or larger scales don't seem to have a interest. As you well know I love my R/C local power (GP35/GP7 in HO). Also I curse the manufacturers that quit producing dummy units in HO so that radio gear and batteries can be installed.
When my son was much younger he had a cheap-O plastic "G gauge" train set that ran on batteries and plastic track. I added more batteries to the tender and installed servos for a throttle/reverser and the whistle. With a standard RC controller, he would set it up in the back yard and had a blast with it. Hmm, I wonder what ever happened to that thing.
Russell-Mopman &I are using r/c car receivers powered with Lithium-Polymer rechargable batteries. With the "right stuff" speed control is as good if not better than DC or DCC and of course there is no wheels or track to clean. Mopman uses his switchers to do the "work" while the local runs on DC. There are no problems using any power systems with r/c on the line. It is funny that there is little interest here, on the freerails site, just one r/c thread has over 40 thousand views and many, many posts. Somebody seems to be interested! Woodie
Russell, here is a pic of the battery and r/c board installation in a GP7 dummy unit. There are only 5 wires involved...two from the battery to the r/c board, two from the board to the motor (isolated from frame) and one for the antenna. The r/c board is from an r/c car and the batteries are for e-flight helicopters. Works like a charm. Here is a pic of the units in service on the Van Buren sub.
I think that illustrates one of the problems quite well. It's hard to have a standalone RC loco, which means most people won't be able to have all their trains on battery RC. And if you have to wire up for one, what's the point of going RC at all? When I was in the garden with G/#1 some years ago I did manage to make my locos standalone battery RC with sound, even a little Porter 0-4-0, but it was a lot of hard work and none of my fellow large scalers at the time would even think of doing that. I think the technology 'size' is probably getting near that sort of level for HO now. But I think it'll still be a while before I can get RC, batteries and sound into an SW7, and I won't be junking my DCC until then I'm afraid
I fail to see the difference in wiring up this unit as opposed to hard wiring a decoder. 5 wires is not that difficult and I don't need a 80 page manual to get it going. I also don't have to worry about dirty track or DCC compatible turnouts. At the same time I don't have $1000 bucks to put in a DCC system. I'm not trying to convert anybody, however based on the above post, there are some people interested in r/c.
Agreed, there's very little difference in wiring up the loco but a massive difference in the power delivery to the motor and electronics. Batteries are still relatively large and until a one is developed that has greater storage and smaller size the smaller scales, particularly N and Z, will still be reliant on getting power from the rails for the most part. And in HO most will require two units MU'ed to provide the motive power - battery in one and motor in the other. Mu'ed locos are a pain to handle at times.
As Gats has realised it's not the complexity I was targeting - it's the space needed. Getting equivalent functionality to DCC requires space for batteries as well as a circuit board and a speaker. Trailing cars or dummy engines are a bodge I personally won't accept, and one that irks many others too. It's the same problem as electric car makers have - battery power density is still not yet quite high enough for comfort. It will be sometime As to cost, well a bunch of Lithium batteries don't come cheap if you do more than a few locos. (And you have to keep them charged up, which could get complicated to keep track of if you have a lot of locos.) I think we are all interested in being free of track power, just as we are interested in cheap and limitless fusion power. I just hope the former will arrive sooner than the latter - i.e. sometime before I die
Like a few have said, the capacity of the batteries are not there yet especially if you are space limited like N scale. I fly electric planes and even with Lion packs, you only get a few minutes of run time. Now with trains, you don't need such high RPM and thus the packs will last longer but you won't be able to run a typical N scale drag for an hour w/o out changing packs or recharging. Certainly it would be a drag if you are running an op session and had to call a time out for a battery swap. Also, Lion packs are light by nature so you can't exactly pull the weights out of a local and stuff it with battery (N scale I'm talking about). That means you'll need a dummy or a freight car to hold the batteries. I also do R/C scale boating and have a tugboat. Now in that situation it is perfect. You need the weight to sink the hull into the wall as tugs are deep draft by nature. So instead of fishing weights, just drop a huge sealed lead acid battery for a win-win situation. If only this were the case with N scale R/C.
I think TrainBoard could only benefit from such a discussion of an alternative system. I say go ahead and have this discussion, and if we get a viable R/C option to add to the options for more scales I say go for it.
Well, maybe I do have room for all that stuff in my 35n2 (1:35 scale on 16.5MM track) but since I jumped into r/c, I will not go back to what I consider "traditional" forms of power. I have installed r/c and batteries in On30 and HO and a friend put the stuff in his N scale passenger lashup. He was impressed by the reactions at his club when he ran the stuff-the members thought it was some trick, or maybe he was practicing some "magic". The problem I see with model railroaders is that they fail to look at other hobbies and what is available that just may work with their trains. Hooking up r/c in a loco is very simple, dcc not so simple. How do I know this? I have been a model train "mechanic" for over 40 years and have worked on everything. Someday, batteries will get smaller and then we will talk again. I need to go run a train now, but I don't have to clean track or worry about wiring...I love simple. Woodie
I agree that space is a problem with N and Z. As to having to use a dummy unit for the equipment, I don't have a problem with it since all jobs on the layout have at least two engines including the yard switchers. I did have to add about 4 oz of weight to the powered unit to offset the weight of the battery and still be able to pull a dozen or so cars up the grades out of staging. As far as run time...the three cell battery pack I use is 850ma. That gives me between 4-6 hours of run time before recharging which is longer than any op session I run.
Can I assume the batteries are carried in the passenger consist? If so, can your N scale friend runs his locomotive separate to the passenger consist? No. Does he require to have his passenger consist with his loco at all times for it to run? Yes. In reality, you have to agree that is quite limiting and demonstrates the smaller scales are not easily converted to stand alone installations. It's not a matter of not looking at what other hobbies are doing but understanding some of these hobbies have applications that may be utilised there are physical restraints that need to be overcome first. Battery size and control module size are two. Hooking up DCC in a loco is just as simple - the same wiring function for function and you don't have to disguise or fit an antenna somewhere on the loco. And then there is the inter-unit connections where the battery is separate from the motor. This adds another failure point and added complexity in handling when required. As I alluded to above, until the inherent R/C technology reduces in size the MR's smaller scales are not a viable option. HO is currently marginal but the larger scales would be more open to using R/C methods, and do.
One of the modelers at my club has an R/C GP35 which he uses to great effect for switching work. We're an HO club. The problem I see is pretty basic. Consisting. for anything other than Steam, or local/switching work, you would need more than one unit together to look remotely prototypical. That could be a dummy unit, but that adds extra drag. And it doesn't fix the 3-5 unit lashups one could expect in mainline trains. At some point, R/C would have to use something like DCC to allow for consisting. Once that's figured out, then you've got something. The other question I have is on motors. On the engine pictured, I don't see the big can motor that normally sits in the shell. I assume it has a smaller motor and that smaller motor means less pulling power which means fewer cars. Pulling fewer cars at more expense is not a step forward in my mind.
If each unit in the consist has it's own R/C receiver then you can do MU the same as DCC using the radios. You simply either give them all the same address or you broadcast the same commands to all locos in the consist list. No extra wires or track signaling required. The basic problem is unchanged. How to get the battery+r/c+motor all in one unit at the small scales.
Is RC in a position to do that yet? Send out signals on multiple frequencies? Do R/C throttles have the capabilities to do this? What of Sound and such. Sound is making a big push, can you add sound in an HO engine? How long would the batteries last?
Don't know about R/C. Do know about RF. If the signal is digital, then you can use one frequency, and the locos could have addresses, and so on. It would be wireless, battery-powered DCC. RFID is already doing this with very small, limited function chips. For example, you can easily fit a fairly large (30+ foot range) passive RFID tag inside an N scale boxcar. Digital transmissions with 12-digit ID codes... Hmm... I wonder if you could have enough RF power to run the motor without melting the operators... Answer: Probably not without violating FCC regulations... 12W is a pretty big transmitter...
Well sure, with RF, but RF is a very very very very broad term. An R/C controller won't send The latest American Idol episode to my TV, but RF will. The question is whether off the shelf equipment could do this. My guess is no.
Probably not but it's only a matter of time before R/C goes digital, if it hasn't already. The RF tech required to take something like DCC wireless would not be rocket science, and could easily piggyback off cordless phone tech. I'd not be at all surprised to find a demo on YouTube any day now.
